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OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: UGLYTRUK ()
Date: October 11, 2018 07:30AM

I submitted the following comments to WAMC, the local public radio station for Albany NY, near where this accident happened. They didn't print it, and closed the comment section below the internet story.

My guess is a hydraulic brake pipe failed. They're typically made of zinc or galvanized plated steel and rust to imminent failure in about 10 years. Sometimes they're in good condition except for a small portion, usually at a clamp or where they're screwed to the rubber caliper hose or wheel brake cylinder connection (galvanic corrosion). I've been a mechanic for 40 years and have seen so many cars and trucks with rusty brake lines ready to spring a hydraulic brake oil leak and yikes, 90% brake failure! Usually with zero warning. Some brake function will remain due to a 1967 federally mandated dual circuit master curcuit, but not nearly enough to stop a large vehicle barreling downhill. A quick thinking driver may be able to apply the emergency (parking) brake, if it works, again due to rust, it likely was out of service. I can't count how many vehicles I've seen pass the NY inspection with seized or completely missing cables, a common occurance. Many newer (1990 up) vehicles have rear disc brakes that have essentially inefective emergency brakes that wouldn't be able to stop a vehicle no matter how hard the pedal is applied or lever pulled up. This includes Mercedes and GM Suburbans among many others. I always use my emergency brakes to keep the system functional, I doubt any vehicle with an automatic transmission, more than about 10 years old is ever used or functions. These are my speculations about the limousine brake failure based on years of observations, the crashed vehicle probably is too badly damaged to determine exactly what failed. Brake line hydraulic pipes should be made of corrosion proof stainless steel. Ironically, SS (stainless steel) brake lines are widely available for classic and vintage cars that will seldom see even a rainy day. I don't believe even one single manufacturer used SS brake lines, though more recently (mid 80's) manufacturers have been using (teflon) or similar coated lines. Nevertheless, they still rust and fail adjacent to the fitting or clamp, due to galvanic corrosion. There have been some comments regarding the lack of seat belts, side guard crash protection, undersized brakes for a vehicle of that size and weight, no airbags etc. But in all the discussion I've never heard one mention of what I'm sure is the biggest factor, rusty brake lines and an inoperable emergency brake. It was reported that the vehicle had failed a mandatory mechanical inspection about a month ago for an inoperable or illuminated ABS warning lamp, and then a sticker had been placed on the vehicle rendering it unsuitable for passenger carriage. It remains to be seen if the driver or owner just removed the sticker, or if the vehicle had subsequently been inspected, by the "I know a guy" garage. I also just read that the limo driver was a former tractor trailer driver, so even though he may not have had the current correct classification driver's license, it's only just a technicality of going to motor vehicle and paying a few dollars and taking a very simple (if any) test



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 07:39AM by UGLYTRUK.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: October 11, 2018 07:41AM

Volvo has been using Cunifer for years. Everyone else still seems to use steel lines (zinc is too soft for a line, zinc coating [galvanize] is OK, but I've never seen any).

You northern people see lines rust through with brake failure in under 10 years. Very dangerous!

I've gone to using Cunifer for all lines on cars, as I am tired of changing the steel lines AGAIN!

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: October 11, 2018 07:41AM

More than likely the driver was unaware of the road design and was tooling along having fun, oblivious to the T intersection coming up. He just was not capable of responding to situation in time. He was probably preoccupied with the on-goings in the back and took his concentration off driving. I have been in a limo for partying purpose and seen the driver join in. Never been in one since. I will drive myself. Much safer.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2018 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ Z71 Centennial Edition
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Mel ()
Date: October 11, 2018 07:49AM

In Ontario CANADA we are seeing steel brake line rust issues (failure) on vehicles 2 year's old eye popping smiley they use brine on the roads up here and it is deadly on vehiclessad smiley

Orangeville, Ontario. CANADA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 07:52AM by Mel.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Mel ()
Date: October 11, 2018 07:55AM

I really doubt the "parking brake" would have stopped the limo even if it was in working order sad smiley

Orangeville, Ontario. CANADA

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 11, 2018 08:21AM

Bootom line... those type of "Stretched" vehicles are deathtraps... design and use...

Should be restricted to "no highway use" imo!





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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: UGLYTRUK ()
Date: October 11, 2018 10:24AM

With all the chatter on all the stations that I listen to during the day, I never heard one guy mention anything about Rusty brake lines. It must be that all day Talking Heads Drive late model cars, they'd never experienced broken gas tank straps or rusted up brake lines, I'm even repaired cars rusted brake lines, and they come back a few years later and the new lines are rusted through again.. I'm doing a 2002 Toyota Tundra right now, and the guy had Toyota put on all new fuel lines and two brake lines, and the front ones a few months later were rotted beyond belief, it's just unbelievable that they can send a vehicle out that has such Rusty brake lines, and he missed the 12-year frame replacement program, and the truck is a rotted piece of crap but it looks great

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: October 11, 2018 10:36AM

Most of the Tundra and Tacoma pickups I see, the brake lines outlast the frames soooooo.....problem solved there.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 11, 2018 11:16AM

I wish they would quit using salt. They never did here in Texas until just a few years ago. Sad.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: UGLYTRUK ()
Date: October 11, 2018 11:52AM

I'll make a video of this RusTundra just for you WagonMaster

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Date: October 11, 2018 12:48PM

Laws dont actually prevent crime. Didn't Cuomo just admit that? What a @#$%& shame.

1961 Corvair 700 Sedan - 3sp - Gasoline Heat - Lowered - Rust in Progress


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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: October 11, 2018 01:58PM

UGLYTRUK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll make a video of this RusTundra just for you
> WagonMaster


If it doesn't have a chrome exhaust tip, I'm not interested. smoking smiley

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: Murphy ()
Date: October 11, 2018 03:11PM

Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Ontario CANADA we are seeing steel brake line
> rust issues (failure) on vehicles 2 year's old
> eye popping smiley they use brine on the roads up here and it is
> deadly on vehiclessad smiley


THe salt brine they spray on the roads today is much more destructive than plain rock salt. It eats everything fast...brake AND fuel lines.

65 Monza Coupe
61 500 Coupe-W100181
Earliest '61?

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: UGLYTRUK ()
Date: October 11, 2018 03:21PM

I just listened to Amy Goodman-democracy now. She was talking about the owner of this limousine company whose son was just arrested and released on $150,000 bail. It seems he was involved in some motor vehicle scams, he was a paid informant as we well know, but it seems that he was setting people up at didn't really commit any crimes, if you can believe what I just heard on the news. Quite interesting when these things get opened up to daylight.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 12, 2018 08:41AM

"he was a paid informant as we well know, but it seems that he was setting people up at didn't really commit any crimes"
That is fairly common practice in the US. Entrapment went out the window a long time ago if it ever was a good defense. Informants are usually doing things for "law" enforcement to avoid their own jail time so they will do just about anything.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: solo2r ()
Date: October 12, 2018 12:52PM

A lot of this does not make sense, All the People died in that car. Are there any autopsies done as to weather there was Carbon Monoxide poisoning? One of the Girls had texted a Friend that the engine was very "loud" just minutes before.
CO is a silent killer.

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Re: OT-Limousine Crash Scoharie NY
Posted by: UGLYTRUK ()
Date: October 13, 2018 11:24AM

I hadn't read that part or heard about the engine being loud, but even though there's updates every single day on wamc, the local Albany station, I still haven't heard a word about a possible brake line failure, could be anything but, this just seems so likely with the incredible rust on cars around here.

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