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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 09, 2018 12:52PM

john.jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a small point:
>
> Octane rating is a measure of knock sensitivity or
> resistance.
>
> It is NOT a measure of energy content or energy
> density.
=========================================================

I hope most everyone knows that....I've mentioned it here 100 times in 19 years!!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 09, 2018 12:53PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So are you planning to mix your own E15?
========================================================

Not me!! I TUNE to whatever Walmart sells Cheapest!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: October 09, 2018 01:28PM

I've read some on hot rodding the LS motors. The flex fuel versions are designed to run E85 fuel are able to make more HP with only a tuning change than the others. Not from burning the E85 but because they were built with larger injectors and will spray more fuel into the engine.
I did read an article, maybe YouTube, where they tested the same engine on a dyno to determine if E85 could make more HP than straight gasoline and it did but they had to flow a lot more of it, actual power per gallon is less with alcohol but it can create a few more ponies if you cram enough in.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Date: October 09, 2018 01:58PM

Have any of you guys watched "Pump" on Netflix? Its a pretty great documentary. It made me want to like ethanol. Is running ethanol or ethanol-blend really that terrible if the rubbers are suitable and the engine is tuned for it?

1961 Corvair 700 Sedan - 3sp - Gasoline Heat - Lowered - Rust in Progress


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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: October 09, 2018 02:19PM

The damage I see is the alcohol absorbs water from the air in older open fuel systems. New vehicles have closed systems (to minimize fuel vapor getting into the atmosphere) so, minimal water vapor gets into the tank. Older cars vent right into the tank, so water vapor is always present to get absorbed into the fuel, thus rusting out the tank, lines, and making new compounds to put globules into the float bowls, etc. angry smiley

Plus the effect on rubber parts....

If you drive an older car as a daily driver, it is not such an issue, as you are constantly burning the alcohol/water mix and adding new water-less fuel. Once you replace the old rubber parts with new....

Now, park that 2000 whatsitz for 20 years and get back to me on how well sealed that fuel system really is!grinning smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Date: October 09, 2018 03:39PM

MY problem with Ethanol as a fuel is:
Does not make economic sense.
The costs to plant and grow the base crop, then harvest and refine that product into ethanol and distribute it to your station ~ is far more than the same process for gasoline.
The only reason it exists is because of EPA/Congress Mandates that it be used.
It provides less useful work, costs more, drives up the cost of food.
All in the name of "Renewable" energy when the Oil & Gas industry are finding more and more crude oil every year!

Pure Gasoline and Diesel are amazing transport fuels!


Dan Davis ~ Pierce County, WA ~ CORSA Western Director + Corvairs NW + North Cascades Corvairs + Corvanatics
1966 Corsa Turbo coupe ~ ~ 1966 140 Corsa ~ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 'Vert Sierra Tan/Fawn ~ 1964 Monza 'Vert (SOLD) ~ 1960 Monza Ermine White/Red PG ++ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 Evening Orchid w/ ivory/black interior ~ 1962 Monza Wagon 102/4 ~ 1963 Rampside/Scamper ~ 1963 Red/Greenbrier ~ 1969 Ultra Van #468

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: roger65180 ()
Date: October 09, 2018 04:47PM

I did some dyno tests with ethanol, my car is modified turbo car carb is a Qjet 800 cfm intercooled , I do not remember the actuall numbers it produced but I remember what I did, first run was 91 octane no E then did some math to arrive at an approximate 25 % and the TQ went up even before boost, went to 50% and the TQ and HP jumped again right from the moment the pull started at about 2700 rpm. one more thing I made NO changes to jetting or timming (YMMV) till we switched to E85 I have not had any rubber failure problems , I run E10 in every thing I own, lawn mower weed eater tiller turbo car Ramside and 62 vert and they are parked from late November to April

Roger R
Madison Wi
62 ct pg turbo
65intercooled 180 4sp,autocrosser
62 Rampy

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: jasvair ()
Date: October 09, 2018 04:54PM

E15 has been available for purchase in the Pittsburgh, PA area for about 9 months. It is only for cars produced after 2009 if I remember what they said on the pump. Will look the next time I am in a Sheetz station.
Don't use it in your Corvair.
John Sweet

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 09, 2018 08:17PM

1966-Corsa-GT-180 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MY problem with Ethanol as a fuel is:
> Does not make economic sense.
> The costs to plant and grow the base crop, then
> harvest and refine that product into ethanol and
> distribute it to your station ~ is far more than
> the same process for gasoline.
> The only reason it exists is because of
> EPA/Congress Mandates that it be used.
> It provides less useful work, costs more, drives
> up the cost of food.
> All in the name of "Renewable" energy when the Oil
> & Gas industry are finding more and more crude oil
> every year!
>
> Pure Gasoline and Diesel are amazing transport
> fuels!

Dan- I respect your point of view but most of what you said used to be true
in the 1970's, and isn't true today... in the 70's, ethanol came from corn that
was grown in the same way as if it were for food, and simply diverted to make mash, and then made into ethanol. At the time, it was found that it took 30% more energy to make corn into ethanol than was got out as fuel, not counting the energy differences between gasoline and ethanol, and to entice farmers into
doing this, the government had to subsidize it... most wouldn't do it because
the subsidy wasn't even close to being enough to make it pencil out for the farmers. Since then, there has been a large change in the way ethanol is produced. 4 separate studies that I'm aware of that were NOT funded by either the oil and gas industry or the ethanol lobby have found that nowdays, it takes 30% less energy to make corn into ethanol fuel, not counting the energy differences between ethanol and gasoline. The reasons for this are many... corn
grown for energy does not receive nearly the amount of pesticides, fertilizer, water and care that "food crops" get. This stuff aint fit to eat and is cheap to grow energy wise! Also, stills have gotten much more energy efficient, and use super cheap natural gas. Its not so easy to convert your car to run on natural gas, and the energy density of that is even lower than it is for ethanol. At 15% ethanol, theres a wopping 6% less energy in the gas. Depending on how rich your carb is, you may or may not find a hp loss. I ran my stock turbo on e-10 once in the 90's when it was still called "gasohol" and I couldn't feel ANY difference in performance, my O2 sensor indicated that the A/F was 13-13.5. No other changes noted.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Date: October 10, 2018 07:32AM

All the gas I have bought in NJ is at least 10% Ethanol and has been for some time. I use por15 in all my tanks, even if they're new. Couldn't hurt. I guess if you let anything sit long enough, unless its a Delorean as they seem to hold up even after a hundred years. smiling smiley I've had cars and bikes that were pulled out of a barn since they were filled with leaded gas, and that isnt pretty either.

1961 Corvair 700 Sedan - 3sp - Gasoline Heat - Lowered - Rust in Progress


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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: October 10, 2018 08:29AM

1. The Trump Administration eased the ethanol restriction in gasoline to reward the Senator from Iowa, Chuck Grassley.
I'll let you guys figure out why.

2. BMW recommends NOT to run any gasoline with more that 10% ethanol.
So, no E15 for my wife's X3.

I worked for and oil & gas company that had trucks converted to run on compressed natural gas (CNG) and gasoline.
CNG, as well as E85, has lower energy content but a higher octane rating than gasoline.
To compensate for the lower energy content, the timing on the trucks had to be advanced when running on CNG.

I was told that if a vehicle was converted to run exclusively on CNG the compression ratio (CR) should be increase to 13:1.

E85 is great for a turbocharged engine or a vehicle with a higher CR or one susceptible to pinging.

I work for the Federal government and drive vehicles that are flexible fuel.
When running E85, gas mileage is reduced by 20%, but E85 costs 20% less so
it's a wash.

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 10, 2018 03:42PM

E10/E15 is no fun either way (Carb/EFI)...even the AFR meter/gauges we use to tune have to be re-calibrated. So now....my trusty AFR gauge may not read right neither (did not know that).

The cool thing is that we log into our systems and just change to AFR setting (E10=14.2/E15-13.7) on the ECMs. The Carbs will need to be re-jetted to run properly and requires a little more work. Yes... engine may burn cooler, but it will require more fuel to get from point A to B. So here we go trying our best to keep our cars on the road longer than ever designed. Use the Green (E Rated) hose due to its rubber eating nature, but its against my Corvair nature to pay that much for hose.

Just a note: I love some Ethanol or the thought of it. I am able to adjust my car around the new fuels fairly easy, but most of the world (pre 1989) dont really have that option. Another is the rust in the tank... keep it full or empty... I was amazed at the amount of light rust that built up in a tank after only 6 months setting.

Ted

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor

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Re: E15 ethanol fuel was just approved.
Posted by: didget69 ()
Date: October 11, 2018 06:24PM

Cars in Brazil have been developed since 1993 to run on E25 to E100 fuels...

Lots of sugarcane available as a feedstock source for Ethanol production.

I recall that Tony Dow's '62 Spyder was setup for E85 during it's rebuild.

bnc

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