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EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 05, 2018 06:53AM

I have got the Gen2 pretty well nailed down except for ignition, so I figured why not go to the potential customer base/hopefully friends and get valued input. I am leaning towards the distributor based system as I wanted the gen2 to be close to stock looking Corvair as possible.

My design theory has always centered around having proven, reasonably priced parts that can be bought at any FLAPS in case of a component failure 300 miles from the house as MOTOHEAD talked about in prior posts. To make the system affordable and easier to troubleshoot/install I need to have 1 basic type of system that revolves around 1 wiring harness.

DIS was the mainstay ignition system of the Gen1 and is pretty rock solid.
Pro: Very dependable and simple
Easy to Start and install
Con: Requires a Trigger wheel, sensor, bracket, DIS and extra wiring.
Does not look factory. Quality parts are getting harder to find.

DISTRIBUTOR:
Converted Corvair Distributor: Takes your distributor and installs reluctor and pickup, locks the advance mech and now you have electronic distributor. Uses Corvair cap, rotor and wires. Even a worn out Corvair distributor will not have the issues since it does not have a points spring load. Timing controlled by ECM. Electronic Coil and internal parts available at FLAPS

Converted TSP Type: The "Ready to Run" type distributors can have the Electronic circuit board removed and act as a pickup. These are new distributors, but sit higher in the engine bay. Many of you already have these and can be easily converted. Timing is controlled by ECM. Electronic Coil and pick-up available at FLAPS.

TSP Type: These "Ready to Run" distributors have a electronic circuit board inside that controls spark and dwell and sold here by Seth. This is a fuel only solution and runs quit well and really simple. It requires a different coil than the electronic controlled units above. I have designed a plug-in cable that will convert between Electronic and TSP type without changing wiring harness. Replacement module not available at FLAPS.

I guess I need to look at a pricing scheme that would include if you already own a TSP type of distributor. I have worked very hard to keep the price as it was before, but it has been difficult due to the new type of ECM price and the availability of GM parts in the yards disappearing. We are buying all new parts for this setup, but I still rather have a GM branded sensor than 100 Chinese ones.

The website is all over the place on this, but unless convinced otherwise, Gen2 may be a distributor based system....but I always value constructive input from my friends.

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: October 05, 2018 07:09AM

Ted,

I'm just thinking out loud.

Would it be too much trouble to offer:

Order number A - Option 1 - with distributor for $$$

Order number B - Option 2 - using parts from your other distributorless setup..

And the fuel side of the Gen2 would be the same for both..

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 05, 2018 07:38AM

Ted- I applaud your efforts to bring EFI to the masses, and do it in a way that
does not require any or very little tweaking by the user. I'm continually amazed at what EFI has done for my engine, and some of the most important changes (to me) are the ones that don't have anything to do with driveability, and power… its the fast warm up and being able to run the engine relatively leanish at light loads, and how clean that keeps the oil that is a huge benefit all by itself... it always seemed like with any of my past carbed set-ups, the oil would turn black after 500 miles, and was always stinking of gas, and often had watery milky foam crap in the filler neck. The oil is getting ruined in short order because of this, and causes the engine to get worn out. I've got 2500 miles on my engine now, and the oil is still honey colored!!
Anyways, I like the non toothed wheel approaches, those things always looked
ugly, and make the conversion harder to do than necessary. One thing I'm curious about though, for those that already have true 3D timing like
kmart356's "black box", can they retain that if they wanted to go to the "dark side" with your system?

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: October 05, 2018 07:52AM

Hi Ted,

This is on my 2019 "list" for my 1967 Monza and I am hoping you will have the DIS option available! I need to rebuild my Corvair fund, having blown this years budget on my Custom Instrument Cluster!!

I would not mind having a 'pickup device' in the distributor location,I just don't want to route the high voltage through it.Newer cars have "coil-on-plug" systems but I don't think that would work on the Corvair.

Thanks for all your hard work on this project!

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 05, 2018 07:56AM

. One thing I'm curious about though, for
> those that already have true 3D timing like
> kmart356's "black box", can they retain that if
> they wanted to go to the "dark side" with your
> system?

The ECM is a MS system and can accept about anything. We have already tested a frequency based knock sensor that is tuned to the Corvair engine bore size and idle control is provided by PWM control built in and will use external idle control motor that is readily available. In fuel only mode, the ECM only wants RPM information from the "black box" to control the fuel flow.

I still want to build a coil on/near plug system, but cant make the voices stop long enough to get this system to market.

Ted

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 05, 2018 08:07AM

OttawaCorvairGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ted,
>
> I'm just thinking out loud.
>
> Would it be too much trouble to offer:
>
> Order number A - Option 1 - with distributor for
> $$$
>
> Order number B - Option 2 - using parts from your
> other distributorless setup..
>
> And the fuel side of the Gen2 would be the same
> for both..

Good point... Maybe I am being too narrow minded. I need to build 10 wiring harnesses each to really make it worth the trouble. I guess I can do 10 DIS and just put on the shelf until ordered.

Ted

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: October 05, 2018 08:32AM

Ted,

Is it possible to see your Installation Manual? A downloadable PDF would be good.

I am good at wiring (see my posts on my Custom Instrument Cluster) and may want to make a 'custom harness' for my already modified '67 Monza.

Looking at the Manual will give us (me!) an idea of what goes where and your "normal" wiring.

Thanks again!

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: squirrel ()
Date: October 05, 2018 08:52AM

I didn't see points as an option....huh....

Jim Forbes.......63 Monza coupe......Sierra Vista, AZ


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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 05, 2018 09:12AM

squirrel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't see points as an option....huh....

Actually could be with the fuel only, but points do arc with high voltages when the circuit collapses (coil fires)....electronics hate that BTW. That is why I wanted to add the TSP type distributor as a fuel only option as it has a buffer for relaying RPM information to the ECM.

A buffer for points could be designed, but I have not went down that road....YET.

Ted

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2018 09:13AM by TedBrown.

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: squirrel ()
Date: October 05, 2018 09:31AM

a simple passive low pass filter is a big help.

Also points can be used to trigger an amplifier, such as an HEI module (readily available), and that HEI module, if it's the correct one, can also control advance. This setup has very little current flowing through the points, so they will last a long time, if the rubbing block is properly lubricated.

Just trying to muddy the waters a bit more, when you thought you had it all figured out.

Jim Forbes.......63 Monza coupe......Sierra Vista, AZ


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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: October 05, 2018 10:16AM

Ted - How about the other Dist option. The GM 4.3 EFI unit? Did you look at integrating that. Those electronics are at any FLAPS.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: October 05, 2018 10:48AM

I would think a 'Trigger Device' (similar to a "distributor" but with only the 'trigger device' inside a 'blank' hood) either Optical or Magnetic would be a good thing.

It would look like the unit that is installed in the Gen 1 EFI that runs the Oil Pump! Make that top 'cover' a little taller and add the electronics.

This would keep the engine 'clean' and eliminate the need to drill the Harmonic Balancer.

JMHO!!

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: SpyderMan ()
Date: October 05, 2018 02:35PM

I would vote for the distributor to keep it looking as original as possible.I also know that it would fit in my wagon with out worry of finding space to mount everything.

Sam Russell
Durham NC
1962 Monza Wagon
1964 Spyder coupe


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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: October 05, 2018 03:10PM

I don't know if there's many people who would upgrade to EFI and then still run points. Maybe I just don't understand.
It doesn't seem like there would be clearance issues for a bigger distributor in FC or wagon but I could be wrong. Is the concern with the cover overhead or the center piece on the rear frame rail for the 60 type motor mount?
I like the idea of the ignition being distributor based with the oil pump and all but an upgrade from original would be my cup of tea.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 05, 2018 05:39PM

JimBrandberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I like the idea of the ignition being
> distributor based with the oil pump and all but an
> upgrade from original would be my cup of tea.






The converted original distributor maybe what your looking for. It sends signal to the ECM, the ECM figures dwell and timing. You cant use oil-filled coils as they pull so many amps they tend to overheat and burn out the components. The electronic coil is the way to go..... cool, low amp and provides a lot more kick. Also thinking maybe I should have been a hand model at this point.

Ted

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: October 05, 2018 06:29PM

I like the converted distributor and use that very thing in the race car and some of my personal cars. It can also be used as just a trigger with a round cap made to cover the electronic components. That way you can have the best of both worlds and use the full distributor with wires or just as a trigger. Then if anyone wanted to upgrade to the new TSP distributor using wires it would be a piece of cake.
That way only 2 wiring systems need to be figured out and they would be very similar.

Personally if I am going FI I also want DIS. The GM 3 coil pack is easily serviced.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: October 05, 2018 06:39PM

I have put over 300k mile on different GM DIS waste spark coils and modules. Plus they have enough power to fire plugs with enormously large gaps. My daily driver has over 140k miles on the plugs and it stills fires them off.
DIS would always get my vote. Lets see a set of points go that far smiling smiley

Lee J

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: vairsUPnorth ()
Date: October 06, 2018 12:25PM

vairmech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I like the converted distributor and use that very
> thing in the race car and some of my personal
> cars. It can also be used as just a trigger with a
> round cap made to cover the electronic components.
> That way you can have the best of both worlds and
> use the full distributor with wires or just as a
> trigger. Then if anyone wanted to upgrade to the
> new TSP distributor using wires it would be a
> piece of cake.
> That way only 2 wiring systems need to be figured
> out and they would be very similar.
>


I have to agree with Ken on this. I have all carbed Corvairs at this point but am considering EFI for my wife's Monza. Currently it has Seth's distributor and I built a new engine wiring harness around that. After an ignition fail (at the most busy intersection in the county--turned out to be a failed coil) I realized that there is no FLAPS replacement parts for the current setup and I can't simply swap in a stock distributor without rewiring.

My favorite ignition system right now [for a carb engine] is a stock distributor converted to magnetic pickup [Chrysler] to trigger an external module. In my case an MSD6 box and Blaster 2 coil--but a GM HEI module would also work.

[corvaircenter.com]

Dale Dewald
Hancock, MI

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: October 06, 2018 08:11PM

Thanks for your input.... Its easy to get tunnel vision when you have no one to bounce your ideas against. I still have about 20 DIS and trigger wheels left, so looks like I will continue to offer DIS.

As it stands right now, current plan is to offer converted Corvair distributor (Reluctor with Chrysler pickup) standard. If you want a TSP converted distributor, same price and same wiring harness. I will also add a wire in the harness that connects to the RPM out on the TSP R2R distributor (The one Seth Sells) for a fuel only solution. I will discount the kit if you already own a TSP R2R distributor. If you have one with a bad module, we can convert it to pick-up only with a discount on the kit.

After weeks of testing, I have settled on a VW Golf coil igniter that is inexpensive and handles the heat of the Corvair really well. It will not work on the TSP R2R distributor but I do recommend a low resistance E-Coil like the DR-35.

DIS will be an offering as it does require a different wiring harness, but what the hell.

Next big challenge will be to get the 140 4 TBI going in progressive mode and I think it will be the bomb. Current design is a 4 TBI with all opening at the same time...which will be a top end monster, but tip-in may require some tuning. The other option is the run 2 TBI (bored 1.25") on the 140 and keep secondaries Carbs there for looks (block off under carb) after I get it there. Converting to 4 TBIs will be a breeze.

It takes a lot to get a total kit off the ground and I see why most EFI just offer the parts. I have spent way too much money on things that dont work, wrong size, just plain wrong... but its the price of trying to build a kit this complete and I hope my efforts will satisfy future owners.

I will post most stuff on the website and now and then on facebook, so check back on it often. If you have individual questions, you can PM, Call or email me ted@corvair-efi.com.

Again... thanks

Ted

Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
67 Monza A/C Auto - Bad Motor
61 Loadside Auto - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - Work Van
61 Greenbirer 4 Speed - Bad Motor

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Re: EFI Final Design Input
Posted by: DAVECS1 ()
Date: November 09, 2018 07:24AM

I love the new throttle bodies, those are pretty cool. Awesome ingenuity there. I wish I would of thought of that.

I like the fact your offering an MS ECM, it will add some utility to an already great system.

If I had my vote, I think Seth's distributor makes the most sense. It comes in a box ready to go. You just install it and hook it to the EFI system that comes in a box ready to go. :-)

1964 Monza Convertible
110 4 speed
Peoria, IL

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