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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 18, 2018 11:50AM

Ken, am I reading this right, are you idling with 32 degrees of advance.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 18, 2018 12:04PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ken, am I reading this right, are you idling with 32 degrees of advance.

Yessir, you read that correctly. Nice smooth idle at 32* BTDC for 1000rpm +/- 50rpm

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 18, 2018 12:26PM

Idle 1,000 rpm...

Can't you get it down to 450 -500?





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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 18, 2018 01:50PM

Well that's interesting Ken. I guess all engines are different. One of the reasons I added the solenoid to kill the A/R unit at idle was for improved idle. It would idle OK with the vacuum advance in play, but the end result is that I would need to close throttle down to get the right RPM, 900. The problem for me was the that if the headlights and heater motor was running it would go into the "YH spiral of death" and stall. By getting the timing back to the teens I would need to open the throttle some. This gave me a more stable idle between no load and alternator load. Also when you hit the gas the timing jumps ahead rather the back. Just about every carb'd car uses and idle port to kill the VA at idle. Did you try going back to the teens at idle, what happened.?

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 18, 2018 03:11PM

When I was running the distributor + Dale A/R the idle timing was also advanced as I did not defeat the vacuum advance part. I have gotten used to driving it that way with 1000rpm idle and it works for me. It's easy enough to try the lower timing at idle so I will give it a go after I finish installing my wideband o2 sensor/gauge,

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 18, 2018 03:27PM

I don't understand the fascination with a low idle rpm. Oil pressure is lower,
less grunt for take off, and with a carb, the idle signal is usually worse. There is absolutely nothing wrong with running the timing like that and simply closing the throttle plate more to control the engine speed, and weakening the idle mixture to reduce fuel usage. Set like that, the idle vacuum is much stronger, the throttle response is a lot better, and the car will have more grunt for takeoff, and the engine will not "hunt" for idle when the throttle is
closed, as is often the case when the timing is used to help slow the idle down... no close the throttle and wait for the engine to slow down.
My car idles at 1k all day long, and has 28 degrees of timing there and when
warm is idling between 13.5 and 14.5... snap throttle response, no hunting or
waiting for the idle to slow down, and the vacuum is much higher than normal...
something like 18-19". Another interesting benefit with the strong timing and
more throttle closure approach is that there's more cooling when idling.
Seems to work pretty slick!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 18, 2018 05:17PM

I keep mine at least 900, but for me the lower timing works better when there is an alternator load. The YH doesn't like when the vacuum starts to drop. As far a cooling, its interesting point your IR gun at the throttle portion. Its cooler than the carb body or the turbo inlet by quite a bit

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: November 18, 2018 07:57PM

Ken, is there a separate spark table for crank, or is the unit using the 400 RPM line of 16o? I'm guessing the flare out of crank is pretty healthy with the jump from 16 to 32 immediately upon firing.

There's nothing wrong with idling at 1000, as long as it doesn't run on when shut off. It's a lot more work to make the transition from idle timing to low speed road load timing if there's a huge jump, as each degree or two makes a lot more torque.

The way you have it actually pulls on the idle circuit harder with the butterflies shut and all of the timing making the torque. If you had active idle control with the spark, you wouldn't have any torque left, as you are probably at MBT or very near it right now. That's how using spark for idle control works, you have to leave some on the table so when it's needed to carry the load, it can be delivered and save the engine from a stall.

So, can you feather the clutch out and get rolling, or do you have to put some throttle to it?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 19, 2018 03:57AM

Mr Pancake smiling smiley

The 400rpm line is crank timing. Yes it does flare out with gusto. Engine does not run on when shut off. When pulling out, I have to do both but not drastically... feather the clutch a little and tip the throttle a bit.
If you have some recommendations to allow me to “leave some on the table” that would be most excellent. I will give it a try.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: November 19, 2018 04:39AM

Just verifying ,the static is set for "0" and the blackbox takes care of all the timing, correct...

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
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NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 19, 2018 05:08AM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just verifying ,the static is set for "0" and the blackbox takes care of all the timing, correct...

Correct as stated.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: November 19, 2018 10:01AM

kmart356 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr Pancake smiling smiley
>
> The 400rpm line is crank timing. Yes it does flare
> out with gusto. Engine does not run on when shut
> off. When pulling out, I have to do both but not
> drastically... feather the clutch a little and tip
> the throttle a bit.
> If you have some recommendations to allow me to
> “leave some on the table” that would be most
> excellent. I will give it a try.

That’s Mr Pancake to you!grinning smiley

Since you aren’t using a Idle Spark Control PID loop, there’s no reason to allow advance for stall saver or letting the clutch out from a stop.

If what you have is to your liking, I wouldn’t mess with it. I can probably help you shape the table to help it come back to idle better and also not flare so hard out of crank, but if it’s not broke, don’t fix it!winking smiley

Some observations after re-reading this entire thread are:
1-97 kPa seems like a low BARO for FL; I’m used to seeing 99-102 on my FL projects. If you have a smartphone, there’s apps to use the sensor internal to the phone. They’re extremely accurate, and fun to watch pressure changing while flying. Your ears can discern 1 kPa. winking smiley I’d consider checking the accuracy of your MAP sensor still, maybe the calibration offset isn’t quite right yet...
2-Are you able to set the RPM and pressure ordinates any differently? You could re-ordinate down low near idle for better resolution if you ever did want to idle down there. The jump from 800-1200 is a difficult one to overcome. Also, your pressure ordinate only allows you 8.4 PSI of boost, so if you’re plans are to go past 8.4 and still be able to make spark timing adjustments, you’ll need to address this.
3-I like the caution tape in the upper left corner of the last spark map. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 19, 2018 10:15AM

MR Pancake,

The Black Box MAP sensor readings are inaccurate (CB Performance is addressing the issue). What I have done is correlate what the spark table values are relative to actual measured values... that is the reason for the Caution Tape!smoking smiley

Yes, I can set the RPM and pressure ordinates and will incorporate these recommendations (waiting for CB Performance to correct the MAP issue). I will take a look at some sample spark tables that come with Black Box to compare that idle/crank region but so far it's working pretty well.

As always, thank you for the comments/suggestions.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 19, 2018 10:51AM

A neat trick for idle timing that I have used in the past is to have the timing
2 or 3 degrees higher at an rpm that is lower than the idle rpm, so if I was to let out the clutch at idle, then the rpm would drop a little and the timing strengthens so I didn't have to slip the clutch and increase the rpm for gentle
take offs.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 19, 2018 11:05AM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A neat trick for idle timing that I have used in
> the past is to have the timing
> 2 or 3 degrees higher at an rpm that is lower than
> the idle rpm, so if I was to let out the clutch at
> idle, then the rpm would drop a little and the
> timing strengthens so I didn't have to slip the
> clutch and increase the rpm for gentle
> take offs.


I like that, I keep forgetting this thing is adjustable.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: November 20, 2018 04:30AM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A neat trick for idle timing that I have used in
> the past is to have the timing
> 2 or 3 degrees higher at an rpm that is lower than
> the idle rpm, so if I was to let out the clutch at
> idle, then the rpm would drop a little and the
> timing strengthens so I didn't have to slip the
> clutch and increase the rpm for gentle
> take offs.

This is exactly what I was talking about “leaving some on the table “. You have to be able to make more torque by adding additional spark, and if you’re already maxed out, additional spark will either do nothing or actually hurt you (negative work, peak pressure before TDC).

I don’t know if you can write to this system on the fly, but if you can, at idle, keep adding one degree at a time without moving the butterfly position. If you pick up RPM with each degree, there’s torque available, if RPM stays flat or slows down you have too much ignition timing.

I’d probably go through the work of calibrating 800 RPM steady state to see what max spark can be there for idle, possibly 600 RPM steady state as well, then make a 1000 ordinate,(you don’t need the resolution between 4000 and 5000, I’d “steal” one of those and shift the map accordingly). Then I’d drop the 1000 idle values 2-3o to give it the “stall saver” when you glide the clutch out.

What you don’t want to create is a ping-pong situation where dropping into those values on a throttle chop induces hunting.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 20, 2018 05:21AM

This trickery aka “stall saver” that MR 63turbo and MR Pancake have described has now become my primary mission objective.thumbs up

Yes, the values can be saved on the fly to the Black Box. Also pls note that the Black Box does not "hold" the timing from one ordinate to the next - rather it interpolates between values to smooth the curve. When it reaches the end of the spark table, it does hold the last value to prevent wrap around or other maladies.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: November 20, 2018 07:51AM

CB Performance Black Box

I’m assuming this is the unit you’re using? It’s even priced properly for Corvair enthusiasts!grinning smiley

A 5 bar MAP sensor is meant to have the resolution from atmospheric pressure to 60 PSI positive pressure, what they are describing in their ad is a 4 bar, which is either a mistake or part of the confusion.

There really is no reason for you to have more than a 3 bar sensor, I don’t see you putting 30 lbs of boost to it, do you? I’m guessing they have the MAP sensor gain and offset cal hard coded, or do you have access to that in the software? I saw their software is downloadable, maybe I’ll try when I’m looking with my laptop instead of my phone. Then I can actually speak intelligently with you. (At least try to!smiling bouncing smiley)

Your map is so flat once you are in boost, and I understand you’re going to explore the possibilities once boosting with a trustworthy MAP value, so those spark values are subject to change. I think you can get your RPM and pressure ordinates better suited to the needs of your engine at the edges of boost and RPM. Making power is easy, drivability is the tougher part of calibration.

I guess this helps address the dyno question earlier; the dyno allows you to learn what the engine will take, tuning on the street will allow you to give the engine what it wants. You’ll find the more you mess with this system, the less jumps you want in timing, as they can cause unwanted acceleration and hang-ups.

Overall, I can see the Black Box being a very useful tool for those stuck with or clinging to their carburetors and distributors.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 20, 2018 08:05AM

PressurizedPancake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CB Performance Black Box
>

> It’s even priced properly for Corvair
> enthusiasts!:
>


That's what I was thinking, neat toy for the $$$$


Not sure why they are use 4/5 bar MAP. Maybe they cost less.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 20, 2018 11:13AM

PressurizedPancake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CB Performance Black Box
>
> I’m assuming this is the unit you’re using? It’s even priced properly for Corvair enthusiasts!grinning smiley


That's the one. The Dashboard allows setting RPM and MAP rows/columns and timing. It has a rev Limit setting and also support a Two-Step Rev Limit control. No access to internal parameters/offsets.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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