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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 15, 2018 11:36AM

your picture/graph is not showing

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 15, 2018 11:49AM

Tom- I see it but will attach here just in case.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 15, 2018 11:55AM

That one worked! thumbs up

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 16, 2018 11:54AM

That's so awesome Ken!! out of boost pinging banished!!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 18, 2018 01:17PM

Update:
Just did a short test drive with what I will call my "summer" tune. It is still high 80's - low 90's here so I need to wait a few months to try for any increased timing tests. I have greatly improved the off the line take off (from stop lights, not drag strip). I always had a little boggy patch that I would feather the clutch to get through. It is much better now after I emulated "ported" vacuum for low RPMs (basically hold onto the timing advance at lower vacuum). The low end and mid range is pulling strong (without getting into boost) and just a slight hint of Safeguard knock retard activation in the transition into low boost. I'll be working on that transition before doing any WOT runs. Base timing is shown in solid blue on graph although "base timing" does not have as much significance with the programmable ignition system, it is a good reference.

Notes:
-The MAP port on the Safeguard is not connected so it is activated to sense knock at any engine load, not just at/near the boost range (less than -5"Hg).
-Confirmed with vendor that Black Box can handle heat when installed in the engine bay (away from exhaust/turbo). Mine is in the spare tire well.

Next Steps:
- install NGK BR6HS resistor plugs
- install Brown EFI Distributor to delete points based timing
- install Dodge Colt Disc Brake setup so I can stop while doing those WOT tests cool smiley



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 18, 2018 02:07PM

I told ya so!

Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall (172.223.202.78)
Date: September 24, 2018 06:11PM

Ken, I run 12 Initial as well... nice low idle easily obtained!

My Curve Mechanical only

Starts at 800 rpm and ramps up quickly to 36 total at 2300 rpm.. [ 24 crank / 12 dist. ]

I then just use a '64 Press. retard that retards 7 deg. at 3-4 psi...

Car runs an early low 1st 4 speed with 3.27's and 23" tires. Car is peppy on or off boost and I make 3-4 psi in 1st.

Pump 90 octane here in Oregon and no ping..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 18, 2018 04:03PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I told ya so!

Yessir you did smileys with beer



Not the old school tune up photo, eh?

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 18, 2018 04:18PM

Thing have changed for sure!

What I have

[www.ebay.com]

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 22, 2018 07:23AM

Update:
More tuning this weekend to tweak the final non-boost timing and I am going to declare this black box install a big success. No more slight bogging off the line, no more slight stumbling when braking for stop, no more pre-boost ping around 2400-2600rpm. The turbo is much more tractable while driving in traffic and pulls nicely from 2200rpm. I even drove it on a few errands. Safeguard is quiet (no LEDs flickering at all).

Notes:
-CB Performance confirms that you can setup your MAP columns and RPM rows at uneven intervals if that is what you choose. The Black Box interpolates between current/next timing value and smoothly increases/decreases.
- If you go past the boundary (over boost* or over rev*), the last valid timing value is used. *don't try this at home.
- Black Box does have a rev limit feature.

Next Steps:
Install Brown EFI Distributor (get rid of those points)
.

Tech: This timing works for me, YMMV

Crank timing is set at 16*
Base timing is set at 24*
Idle timing is set at 30* (60-64kPa)
Cruise timing is set at 38* (50-58kPa)
Med-Full throttle timing is 30* 2800-5500rpm (MAP> 74kPa)

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 22, 2018 07:51AM

Ken,

could you post a screen shot of your final spark table like you did on the first page, to use as a reference in the future.

Thanks

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 22, 2018 10:00AM

Hi Tom - The non-boost part of the spark table is what is solid for my engine. The boost side is under development eye popping smiley




Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 22, 2018 10:38AM

Thanks! smileys with beer

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 23, 2018 11:41AM

***Notice/Warning***
The MAP sensor in my Black Box is not calibrated properly. Please do not use any of the timing table values I have published until further verification.

Today I set up a calibration test to confirm exactly what MAP the Black Box was sensing when my methanol injection activated. The methanol system boost sensor switch was set for 5-5.5psi activation. For the test, the sensor switch was T connected with Black Box and Vacuum/Pressure test gauge. Yikes, the Black Box was reading roughly 1/2 of actual PSIG.

Contacted CB Performance and have a replacement Black Box on the way to replace this one that will be sent back. "Claude's Buggies" has been the performance go to shop for hot VWs since waaaayyyy back and they are solid. I had no doubt they would make this right. When I get the replacement, I will correlate the vacuum readings old vs new so that I can adjust the spark table accordingly.

On the plus side, based on the erroneous MAP readings, my timing under boost has been between 28* to 26* with methanol injection active. That is a calculated 2* increase from what was previously active with distributor-Dale A/R-Safeguard system. No wonder it felt stronger on-boost. smileys with beer

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2018 09:46PM

You'll find you want to maintain 29-30 BTDC when boosting...... then just use the Meth to control ping...





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 23, 2018 11:13PM

Matt- Best timing under boost depends on a number of factors... compression ratio, camshaft fuel air ratio, and how much boost you want, at what rpm, and of course, margin of safety if some unforeseen circumstance comes up like when the water injection stops working or the wastegate gets stuck or your extra rich fuel air ratio goes lean. To say that 30 degrees under boost is best power in all cases no matter the set-up is to invite someone to blow their engine up. Much better to be short of that and put it on a dyno and creep up to best timing than to guess at it.
I've got broken piston rings and pounded out ring lands from timing by the seat of my pants and thinking that I got it right because I didn't see or hear any ill effects from it. I know of others that have bent rods because of the same kind of hear no evil see know evil... one may not know how much damage has been done (from silent detonation) until the engine has been taken apart.
The other thing is, if someone really found best power at 30 degrees of timing at 10psi, they should really increase the compression ratio... it works better
that way.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 24, 2018 07:30AM

Absolutely! But in my experience... Sand car and some streeters... 29-30 works and is safe...

Waste gate! What's a wastegate?? ggg





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 24, 2018 07:58AM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Waste gate! What's a wastegate?? ggg

You don't need no stinkin waste gate when your sucking through a straw!!! grinning smiley

Well just checked you are using a larger straw! smiling bouncing smiley

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2018 08:00AM by toms73novass.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 24, 2018 08:14AM

Two straws please cool smiley



38mm wastegate w_10psi spring and manual boost controller for those 12-13psi blasts

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 24, 2018 08:14AM

2 straws...

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 24, 2018 09:18AM

I'm going to blast air through 4! (I want to be just like Dave B. )smoking smiley
I will need a waste gate.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2018 09:19AM by toms73novass.

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