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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 02, 2018 04:25PM

First test drive today was very successful... it ran like it was programmed to. Strong idle after an easy start and warm up. Throttle response just as expected, smooth acceleration and no missing or audible pinging. As this base timing mimics the custom 18deg distributor that I was previously running, all these observations just confirm that the Black Box works as designed and implemented. No boost runs, but that is next.

Now the tuning starts. Not going to push too hard on it until it cols off a little.

Special thanks to "63turbo" for technical advice and feedback on this effort to go digital, thanks Kevin!

Graph below shows existing base timing (solid line) and objective timing (dashed line). I'll take a few steps to get there to make sure no unexpected hiccups occur. Once that is a success, we just keep tuning for performance.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: chris ()
Date: October 02, 2018 07:36PM

Ken, that's pretty cool that you're doing this and the breadth of knowledge on this forum to help in the process. I'll keep watching.

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 04, 2018 05:34AM

Wiring diagram for (relay) switched +12v to Black Box, Coil and Safeguard.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 04, 2018 06:08AM

Nice! Thanks

I think I will go with the CB since it is working for you and I will save $100. thumbs up

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 06, 2018 10:48AM

The first 20mile test run that included a few "on boost" stretches can be considered a success. The timing is responding to both MAP vacuum and boost. The Safeguard flickered a little during the transition from off-boost to on-boost but stayed off while boost climbed to a conservative 6-7psi (I let off due to Sat morning traffic).

The most significant issue I am chasing before further test runs is +12v switched wiring that feeds all the electronics and methanol injection. Previously there was a single wire from ignition switch that powered the coil and safeguard plus the methanol injection relay. This must have put that +12v switched feed at the current limit. Adding one more device made this circuit unreliable. I disabled the methanol injection to check the circuitry for Black Box and now it is stable along with +coil and Safeguard. that was proven out today. Need to run a new +12v switched wire from fuse panel to methanol injection relay and should be good to go.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: October 06, 2018 02:12PM

I added a Painless Performance add on fuse box that is triggered by the ignition 12 volt power. That way all of my add on accessories are circuit protected.

Lee J

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 07, 2018 12:08PM

We have liftoff! thumbs up

I found a wiring error (just happened to work OK, but no power to methanol-injection system was being provided). now the 12v Switched circuit does indeed latch up the relays feeding the +coil, Black Box, and methanol pump circuit. As an added bonus, with one jumper to +12 BAT, I can power the Black Box for programming it "in situ" without the engine running.

Low end power is smooth and predictable with good throttle response throughout. Idle is steady with my new vacuum based advance timing. One of the reasons I switched to this programmable set up was a nagging problem with pre-boost pinging (as detected by Safeguard). With distributor mechanical advance + vacuum advance (Dale A/R) it could not be tuned out and caused me to hesitate pushing the pedal to WOT at lower RPM. To solve this, I am using a non-linear vacuum based advance which can be easily changed based on additional test runs. so far the results are good.

Test drive today with numerous 8-10psi boost runs with methanol injection turn-on at ~ 5.5psi. Today's test used 30* max timing at 3000rpm with boost retard rate equal to -1* per PSI (max retard -5* to coincide with meth-injection on). The next phase of tuning will be to increase max timing just at transition to boos and also increase timing under boost to find the sweet spot making sure the Safeguard stays "quiet".

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 07, 2018 12:50PM

Good news. smileys with beer

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 08, 2018 11:32AM

During the installation of the Black Box ignition module, I realized the need for a "Spark Table generator tool". The tool I developed is Excel based and has numerous variables that allow for custom timing curves to be designed and visualized. The reference curves I have used are the 1110311 95hp distributor, '63 150hp and '65 180hp distributors and also a custom 18* 0319 distributor that I was running prior to conversion.

If anyone decides to try the Black Box for themselves, send me a PM and I will create a reference spark table based on the Corvair distributor of your choice (using specs documented by Bob Helt) and forward the tool to you. This reference spark table can then be modified for your specific application by changing the variables in the excel tool. I am not responsible for tuning errors that you make. eye rolling smiley


There is a page with Use Notes that should help you get started.



The timing curves are displayed in this format.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 08, 2018 06:51PM

Heck of a job Ken!!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 09, 2018 02:54AM

Ken is the excel wizard! Great Job, Thanks!

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: October 09, 2018 04:26AM

Nice work, Ken.

What is your plan of attack for filling in the non-WOT areas, just seat of the pants and Safeguard?

I’m planning on E85 injection into the screwcharger on my 3L project, I’d like to contact you and compare notes when I get that rolling.

I don’t remember reading it, are you using spark for idle control?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 09, 2018 05:50AM

Thanks guys, Excel is my Sudoku. smoking smiley

PressurizedPancake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is your plan of attack for filling in the non-WOT areas, just seat of the pants and Safeguard?
> I don’t remember reading it, are you using spark for idle control?

The initial effort to eliminate the pre-boost ping during transition from cruising to "get after it" acceleration has yielded good results so far using the Safeguard knock detection. Head temp is also monitored. For further refinements, I have an AEM wideband AFR on the way to help confirm changes.

Fuel management is conventional draw through carburetor using a DGV 38/38 synchronous downdraft on custom manifold. The DGV is simple to tune and I have a jetting kit ready for when the AFR needs to be tweaked.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 11, 2018 03:01PM

Double Modular Redundancy (DMR) for Fault Tolerance.eye popping smiley -- While I was revising the +12v switching circuitry for the Black Box, I decided to build in some fault tolerance. It takes manual intervention to recover from a failure, but it will allow me to get the Spyder home if some electronic component fails. I also wanted to have a way to just power the Black Box without starting the engine for programming the spark table.
The solution was to use two MSD Dual Circuit Relays and a toggle switch.

Normal Mode (Photo 1) -- Ignition Switch "on" activates Relay #1. This puts +12 BAT directly to the MSD Coil. This "switched" 12V is fed to the methanol injection pump relay. This Relay #1 "switched" 12v also activates Relay #2 which puts +12 BAT to the Black Box Power input. Two MSD relays but only use one circuit on each device. If one of the MSD relays fails, it is simple to move wires over to the working relay and keep driving home.

Program Mode (Photo 2) -- The MSD relays have three terminals - Common, Normally Open (NO), Normally Closed (NC). Relay #1 has +12v BAT connected to Common with output on NO terminal. The NC terminal has +12v BAT on it - this was connected to the Toggle switch input. Relay #2 has the +12v BAT connected to NO terminal and the Black Box wired to Common. When the Toggle switch is turned on, it passes +12V BAT directly to Black Box connection and lights the red LED.

Additional fault tolerance has been built in by terminating the wires to the Black Box, Coil and Safeguard so that any of the components can be bypassed for recovery. The engine will run with locked distributor providing timing directly but I will also pack the custom 18deg distributor with Dale A/R for emergency use only.

Emergency Preparedness has been top of mind these past few days. prayers to all those impacted by that deadly storm.





Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 11, 2018 04:07PM

Well though out. thumbs up

I am actually slowly working towards the swap. I am creating a locked distributor with a chrysler magnetic pickup in the stock distributor to eliminate the wear components that the point run on and parts that can be found at a FLAPS. This will be fed to the black box. I will post pics as I progress.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2018 04:08PM by toms73novass.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: October 11, 2018 05:43PM

I have an applicable distributor in stock. Easy, but at some cost, I understand. Mine has the Ford/MSD style magnetic pickup/reluctor.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 12, 2018 03:01AM

If I didn't have 8 distributors to mess with I would have definitely done on of yours Seth.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 12, 2018 01:44PM

Additional insights (courtesy of Mark @ CB Performance) for those that take this Black Box to implementation.

Wiring the Black Box harness is simple enough and they provide long flying leads that you terminate yourself. The only caution is to stay away from any amplified ignition box and spark plug cables to minimize noise into the Black Box feed/output wires. Spark plugs should be resistor type for the same noise mitigation reasons. My personal choice is NGK BR6HS.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: October 14, 2018 06:43AM

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question, Ken. Nice work!

Do you plan on any chassis dyno time? I do factory engine development and tuning for a living utilizing pretty high end combustion analysis with in-cylinder pressure equipment, and one thing that might be of interest to you is the direct correlation of spark plug base temps to the onset of knock. This actual threshold temp varies with engine configuration, but if you would monitor them along with your Safeguard output you an probably do some predictions and retard spark based on head temp to prevent knock.

The other interesting thing I can share is EGT’s will usually go down during knock. It’s also indicative (partially) of why spark plug base temps rise, because the event is happening earlier, and also pressure rises sharply.

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 15, 2018 11:28AM

@PressurizedPancake - thank you for the tip on monitoring spark plug base temp and knock prevention... I have to search for a data logger now cool smiley

@63turbo sometimes refers to the programming capabilities of the Black Box as "3D timing". The flexibility of the 21x21 table does allow for changing vacuum advance rate as needed rather than be bound by the traditional vacuum can that starts at -7"HG and fully advances by -16"HG. Manipulating the advance rate multiplier allows for different advance at different RPM within the same MAP column. The graph shows vacuum advance for some RPM bands that demonstrate this "3D timing". If you connect the right end of each ribbon, that would plot the baseline timing at 0"HG (18* static).

This vacuum advance scheme was tested this weekend and has all but eliminated the nagging pre-boost ping (2200rpm-2800rpm) that has been a pain to try to address with mechanical means. I'm very pleased with the results.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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