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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: October 24, 2018 09:41AM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to blast air through 4! (I want to be
> just like Dave B. )smoking smiley
> I will need a waste gate.




Plus a blow off

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: chris ()
Date: October 24, 2018 11:11AM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going to blast air through 4! (I want to be
> just like Dave B. )smoking smiley
> I will need a waste gate.


Indeed. Dave's setup is the bee's knees.

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 25, 2018 03:01PM

Currently in discussions with CB Performance on the discrepant kPa readings on BB dashboard. While we get resolution from them, I have proceeded to calibrate the boost side of the spark table and also adjusted the vacuum readings to match "reality". Since this is for my specific engine, anyone that implements this (or any other) programmable timing module will have to test & verify on their own. Whatever the final resolution is, I will post it here.

This is the latest Beta test spark table. The boost side is now broken down into three sections that can be adjusted using "target" timing for that region. The methanol-water injection activates at 4.5 PSI using a Nason pressure switch that just controls on/off. The next upgrade is a progressive controller that ramps up the spray based on start/full psi settings.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: October 25, 2018 09:15PM

Looking good!

If I can make a suggestion on your timing between 800-2000 at the left side of the map; you may want to make that 1° increments to prevent “hangup” when chopping throttle. If it’s not, then leave it, but if it is, that’s the first place I’d look.

Timing provides a lot of torque if you’re under MBT (mean best torque) and has a lot of authority without much airflow due to the torque influence.

Hope this helps and thanks for sharing. When I get my wife’s SC engine running I’d like to compare notes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 28, 2018 03:38PM

Did some test runs today using the boost retard timing shown below. Very nice results with no Safeguard intervention to speak of. The dotted line curve is what I want to try when I get the progressive controller working on the methanol system. Should be even stronger.

ps: chased some gremlins for a couple of hours today... "hunting" idle and stalling. turned out to be the intermediate plate on the carb adapter that was sucking air around the gasket. After a quick R & R of the carb to tighten things up and steady idle @ 1000rpm.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: larry202br ()
Date: October 28, 2018 06:20PM

Amazing work, thanks for the posts!

1961 rampside with a 65 / 67 110 engine, car four speed.
1965 convertible
1966 Custom two door/four door

KC0SKX
Olathe, ks
HACOA

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: nirvairna ()
Date: October 28, 2018 06:30PM

Ken

Thanks for doing all this work and sharing it, optimizing spark for our cars is well worth the effort IMO.

Here's a question about timing curves/maps that I've wondered about: If you use a knock monitoring device like a Safeguard to plot the curve based upon the onset of knock, how would that curve look compared to one optimized on a dyno? I've read that they can be different, but is it a significant difference?

Pressurized Pancake, your comment about spark plug base temps and use of a Safeguard to predict the onset of knock - how would a timing curve based on those parameters compare to one from a dyno? Or from one just using a Safeguard?

Dyno time is very expensive here, I'd love to have an alternative method of finding a timing curve that didn't cost me $500 grinning smiley

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Date: October 28, 2018 09:46PM

nirvairna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pressurized Pancake, your comment about spark plug
> base temps and use of a Safeguard to predict the
> onset of knock - how would a timing curve based on
> those parameters compare to one from a dyno? Or
> from one just using a Safeguard?
>
> Dyno time is very expensive here, I'd love to have
> an alternative method of finding a timing curve
> that didn't cost me $500 grinning smiley


Nirvairna, I don’t have all the answers for you, unfortunately it does take trial and error to gain knowledge. One of the things I think is taken for granted is that the fuel available at the pump today is significantly different than the fuel at the pump when our engines were designed. Vaporization, lead, octane, and ethanol/additives are all very different.

The fact that Ken is sticking his neck out and sharing his results for free is one of the coolest things about this site. Not everyone wants to share their hard work and dollars spent. I think it’s the only way we can advance our projects together.

That being said, the spark curves are going to vary with camshaft selection, compression ratio and boost. Boosted engines will likely make best power right at knock, while NA engines not on the edge of tolerable compression will probably be able to run past best torque, especially at higher rpm, with the propensity to knock at peak torque.

I do engine development on turbocharged, supercharged, and NA engines for a large manufacturer, so I’m pretty lucky to have a pretty good arsenal of tools and experience after doing it for over 30 years. Always learning everyday, but also applying the knowledge and trying to give back as well.

As far as the Safeguard is concerned, I have zero experience with it, but am nervous how much faith people on this forum put into it. Having done knock control development exclusively for about 3 years, no knock system is perfect. If you’re tuning that close, you’re riding the razor’s edge in my opinion.

I always tell the guys that want to run the spark right to the edge all the time: pistons make the best fuel; unfortunately, that fuel source is hard to replenish...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2018 09:53PM by PressurizedPancake.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 29, 2018 08:02PM

nirvairna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for doing all this work and sharing it, optimizing spark for our cars is well worth the effort IMO.
Glad to provide some useful insights.

> Here's a question about timing curves/maps that I've wondered about: If you use a knock monitoring device like a Safeguard to plot the
> curve based upon the onset of knock, how would that curve look compared to one optimized on a dyno

The motivation for this started when the Spyder 1st came to me and there was no ignition timing information documented. Mechanical details were listed but the ignition was only known as distributor with Dale A/R + Safeguard for boost/knock retard. Investigation lead to a new, custom curved distributor and road testing.

The results with that set up were a compromise to prevent some pre-boost ping vs power. Using this programmable module while monitoring onset of knock with Safeguard is the best I have available, not going to a dyno any time soon.

Timing schemes have been tweaked after testing and also augmented by suggestions received from various forum members so this is pretty much a “collective” result. Getting pretty close to version 1.0 for 80-95 degree weather running the pump gas we have down here in the sunshine state. smoking smiley
...

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2018 08:04PM by kmart356.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 29, 2018 09:01PM

Ken- you are doing a heck of a job on this! one thing that I just noticed, both
of your retard maps look like inverted multislope distributor timing curves. I have been doing my retard map by seat of the pants, and mostly watching how fast or slow
the boost is coming up, figuring that too fast is too much retard and too slow
is not enough. I had the opportunity to see what how fast the boost really comes up on a modern efi blow through, that has been timed and fueled so close to the edge, that the owner said that it will blow up if ANYTHING is screwed with now... the needle on mine is moving at the same rate as his car when nailed, and there's not a lot of difference between your map and mine, they seem to have roughly the same shape... inverted multislope distributor timing.
You are on to something dude!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 31, 2018 01:12PM

"Turbo Multi-slope Ignition Timing" (TMIT) thumbs up This is where this project has landed, we have TMIT V1.0

No more pre-boost ping, no more hesitationwhen moving off from stop sign or traffic signal. No more stalling out when lifting to brake and make a turn. This turbo drives like a well tuned Super Turbo-Air until you stomp it and go boosted. I even drove it to the corner store and mower shop on errands, never liked doing that before. BTW head temperatures are slightly down even at 81*F outside.

The Black Box spark map is specific to my engine, driving style and desired performance... use it as a reference but check "hg and psi calibrations on your set up. There have been suggestions/recommendations & questions from various members that have helped me make progress...63turbo, PressurizedPancake, MattNall, gnvair, jjohnsonjo to name a few, thanks!

Further development in the Boost region (with progressive methanol injection) will have to wait until the front disc brakes are installed and rear drums are rebuilt. Stopping safely is a pretty cool thing.




Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: November 06, 2018 03:26PM

Ken,

CB Performance owes you a commission, I just ordered one of these today instead of messing with the programmable MSD I just installed because of all the information you have shared. Just couldn't figure out how to get it right.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: November 06, 2018 03:51PM

Has the MAP issue readings been taken resolved?


Great work and thanks for sharing.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: November 06, 2018 07:12PM

@tboltkc - send me any questions you might have when you are installing. Make sure you feed it a switched +12v power source that is not noisy.

@toms73novass - no word on a fix yet regarding the not properly calibrated MAP readings. It did not stop me once I calibrated my boost psi readings using external vacuum/pressure gauge. No doubt they will have a firmware fix soon.

Glad to be able to lend assistance smoking smiley

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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