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Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 24, 2018 03:45PM

My quest to implement the "best" ignition timing for the turbo engine strapped in the 62 Spyder has been educational. Starting with a worn out unknown distributor + DALE A/R and Safeguard, the first step was to upgrade the distributor.

I designed a custom 18deg mechanical advance curve and Ken Hand built the distributor that produced that curve (pretty darned close). I tried a std vacuum advance with safeguard boost retard. I tried the Dale A/R in conjunction with Safeguard... still was thinking I could do better.

CB Performance Black Box

My air-cooled roots are VW and Type 356. CB Performance has been in the business for many years providing products for high performance 4 cyl VW. Well they have a programmable ignition module that works for 4-6-8 cylinders. The cost is very affordable and the functionality is superior to combining mech advance + vacuum advance + boost retard.

The Black Box is being triggered by a "locked" 0311 distributor. The mechanical advance is locked using hand fabricated plates (Photo 1) and the points plate is prevented from moving by an external fixed mechanism replacing the Dale A/R.

The Black Box is wired into the ignition system as shown in photo 2 with the output feeding the Safeguard that maintains knock retard duties (no boost retard). Physical installation is shown in photo 3. I bolted a plate off the side of spare tire holder and the module mounts on that.

The beauty of a programmable system is that you can do curve fitting to emulate just about any factory distributor to use as baseline and tweak to fit your driving style and engine performance. I am starting with a slightly modified version of the custom 18deg mechanical advance curve so that I can make sure it runs as I expect. The Black Box uses a 21x21 spark table so it does provide a fully programmable timing curve.

The engine starts quickly and has a strong steady idle. So far so good, driving tests and tuning are on the agenda.









Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2018 11:29AM by MattNall.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 24, 2018 04:19PM

The only issue I have read about the CB blackbox were people complaining about having dwell issues....

I was considering it I was also looking into the retromotioninnovations interceptor ignition that basically does the same thing.

I will be watching this thread for your opinions and progress.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: September 24, 2018 04:54PM

kmart are you using the MAP sensor for vacuum and boost sense?

Tom - The CB unit can act as just a trigger to drive a MSD ignition unit and should solve any dwell issue.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: September 24, 2018 05:39PM

I will watch this thread with interest.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 24, 2018 06:11PM

Ken, I run 12 Initial as well... nice low idle easily obtained!

My Curve Mechanical only

Starts at 800 rpm and ramps up quickly to 36 total at 2300 rpm.. [ 24 crank / 12 dist. ]

I then just use a '64 Press. retard that retards 7 deg. at 3-4 psi...

Car runs an early low 1st 4 speed with 3.27's and 23" tires. Car is peppy on or off boost and I make 3-4 psi in 1st.

Pump 90 octane here in Oregon and no ping..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 24, 2018 07:21PM

66vairman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kmart are you using the MAP sensor for vacuum and
> boost sense?

Yessir that is how it is connected. Worked up the vacuum advance portion of the timing and programmed that in today. To start with, I will mimic the advance/retard specs of the Dale unit. Once I get some test runs, the boost timing will be tweaked. I will finally get to see how much timing it can handle under boost with methanol injection active.

The CB module is feeding the Safeguard which triggers the coil. Safeguard is for knock mitigation until the optimum timing is achieved. cool smiley

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: September 24, 2018 07:30PM

If you want a precision distributor that will trigger either of the mentioned units, the CB Performance unit or the Retromotions unit, my distributor is easy to lock out the mechanical advance, comes with the parts to remove the vacuum advance and can be converted cheaply to a direct magnetic pulse out. For a turbo, the CB black-box unit, now at around $200, could prove to be a great Turbo application, in lieu of the factory pressure retard, since it comes with a MAP sensor. I would like work with someone who is building one of these systems.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 24, 2018 08:22PM

Way to go Ken! I'm running a version of that same timing curve, and love it...
boat loads of grunt out of boost, super easy to drive and the vaccum advance is
taken out in such a way as to not be felt, and timing drop into boost cant be felt either. Pulls really hard! I think this magic black box is a super simple way to take care of one of the worst attributes of Corvair Turbos- a timing curve that's main attribute is that it wont blow the engine up... and nothing else!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: September 25, 2018 11:10AM

Watching with interest, and would like to see what you come up with for your vac advance/boost retard curve.

I recently installed a Programmable MSD 6AL-2 ignition and am having a little trouble getting it setup right.

I locked my distributor out much like you except I completely removed the weights and stuff - just have my lockout bar and springs under the points plate.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 25, 2018 12:21PM

Fordecades we've used 29-30 BTDC while under boost as the MINIMUM timing for most POWER... Even Warren LeVeque backed this up...

AFTER the Boost retard does it's job... then you add the Safeguard / Meth, etc...

Since mine is a streeter I use a Caspro unit with TWO sensors [ one on each head ] that retards all 6cyl. 10 deg. for several seconds.... since I normally have no problem..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 29, 2018 06:36AM

tboltkc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Watching with interest, and would like to see what you come up with for your vac advance/boost retard curve.

@tboltkc

My first test runs with the Black Box will be using boost retard that mimics what has been in place with the Dale A/R. There was no apparent knock with this timing. See photo

After I added Methanol injection, it seemed to me that adding timing would help performance. With the mechanical advance + boost retard can that would be difficult to accomplish. With the Black Box, just add timing when boost is in the "methanol injection active" region. That is what I will try after sorting out the baseline performance.

Also want to see if I can approach MattNall's 29-30 BTDC while under boost - won't try that until winter when temps drop to the low 70's cool smiley



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: September 29, 2018 06:56AM

I have been running EDIS 6 programmable on my Corvair for over 5 years and have been down this road.
Yes, you can run more timing with alcohol/methanol. You can't do this with straight water.
I do not condone running 30 degrees total advance under boost unless you are running 116 or high octane race gas.......especially if you have some compression (110/140/milled heads).
The one thing you have to keep in mind is that ambient weather conditions will affect your tune. This meaning high humidity, high temperatures will make less timing mandatory.
Also keep an eye on the air fuel ratio while doing this. Stock Corvair turbos seem to be very lean at wide open throttle. I had monitored 12.5:1 or higher.
Air fuel ratios this lean will certainly cause detonation.
Without alcohol/methanol I try to shoot for 11.5:1 as that is a nice place to be for making power AND not being lean enough to cause detonation.
If you are going to run alcohol/methanol then you stay leaner and just richen it up with alcohol/methanol. It just takes a lot of trial and error to bring it all together. I like the fact that I can make ignition changes from inside the car now without having to get out, open the lid and mess with a distributor.

Lee J

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 29, 2018 07:19AM

Yessir, already have methanol/h2o injection running - Boost Juice is 50% mix. Wideband o2 will be installed before any experiments begin, thanks for the example A/R ratios.



Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 01, 2018 04:16AM

Good progress over the weekend - wired in the relay for the +12v circuits to coil, Black Box and Safeguard. Established a vacuum advance that provides good idle @ 900-1000rpm. No missing or other signs of ignition woes but that's just running in the workshop.

CB Performance dashboard and spark table are shown below. The user interface is easy to learn and use but you do have to fill the spark table manually. There are some function keys to assist with the task, but a "cut & paste" capability is not supported.

Road tests begin this week.





Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: October 01, 2018 09:03AM

Is your distributor locked at 0deg and you program the advance. For the MSD you program retard, so the distributor is locked at the max advance you want and you retard from there. And it is two separate graphs.

What is the "map" value it shows there (and the row with 55 highlighted in green)? Looks like the top row is your map sensor readings, and then the y axis is obviously rpm.

Your cranking timing is 16 degrees?

Sorry for all the questions but hoping insight on what you are doing will help me with mine. I wish I would've gotten the same system, looks a little more straightforward but I have never heard of it before.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 01, 2018 09:52AM

Travis- Questions are good, answers follow.

Yes, with this Black Box system the distributor is locked and set at Odeg TDC. The values in the spark table are the actual timing value and can be changed on the fly. I spent some time yesterday making changes to table and running back to confirm with timing light. They track nicely.

The photo of the spark table was taken live, with engine running. The green highlighted numbers are the last updated values the box is using, real time.
The design of the table is "what you see, is what you have", no calculations needed.

yes, 16deg cranking timing gets the engine fired up quickly.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: October 01, 2018 10:41AM

Looks very similar to when I programmed my megasquirt setup on my old bmw. thumbs up

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: October 01, 2018 01:18PM

Thanks for the reply.

So "MAP" = Map sensor value in kPA? That's what I didn't get. The line above that then is the MAP voltage? Am I understanding that now?

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: October 01, 2018 01:24PM

Yes, MAP (top axis of table) is the sensor value in kPA. The line above that is the equivalent in vacuum ("HG) or boost (psi)

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2018 01:29PM by kmart356.

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Re: Turbo Ignition Timing - a programmable module
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: October 01, 2018 01:38PM

Awesome Ken, thanks. Now if I can translate this to the msd setup maybe I can get somewhere.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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