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Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 10, 2018 11:57AM

I understand that all EMs originally came with one key that is a B10 blank. When did the B11 door/trunk blank show up? 65? I do realize it is bitted the same but just has a different shape head. What blanks do later LMs use?
Does anyone have a chart of key codes for tryout keys? I have a set for the B10s that is missing 10 keys.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: jcorvair ()
Date: September 10, 2018 12:34PM

I believe there was a chart in the Communique some years back.

James
Maple Ridge, BC

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Turbo
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2016 Dodge 3500 Crew Cab 4x4 (for haulin cars, trailers, fifth wheels, quads, etc.)
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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: September 10, 2018 01:01PM

From 1936 through 1966 GM used the number 15 Groove on their key blanks.
The blanks were made by Briggs and Stratton.
The Hex Head part number is 32318 from B&S, H1098LA from ILCO, and B10 from Curtis and others.
The Pear Head part number is 32319 from B&S, O1098LA from ILCO, and B11 from Curtis and others.
In 1967 GM went to the "A" key for ignition (Rectangle head) but also used the old style Octagon head.
In 1967 GM went to the "B" key for the glove box (Oval Head) but also used the old style Pear head.
In 1968 GM went to the "C" key for ignition (Rectangle head)
In 1968 GM went to the "D" key for the glove box (Oval Head)
In 1969 GM went to the "E" key for ignition (Rectangle head)
In 1969 GM went to the "H" key for the glove box (Oval Head)
In 1970 GM went to the "J" key for the ignition (Rectangle head)
In 1970 GM went to the "K" key for the glove box (Oval Head)
In 1971 GM went to the "A" key for ignition (Rectangle head)
In 1971 GM went to the "B" key for the glove box (Oval Head)
They continued rotating the blanks from year to year until they went with the double sided convenience key that could be inserted either way.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1965 Monza Coupe
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2018 01:03PM by Caraholic4life.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: 67 airvair ()
Date: September 10, 2018 01:11PM

Starting in 1983 the rotation of letter keys went to every 4 years. So the A-B keys were used in '83-6, C-D keys in '87-90, etc.

-Mark

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: September 10, 2018 01:46PM

How about that, I even learned something today.....coolcool smiley

1962 95 F.C. Van
1965 Monza Coupe
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 10, 2018 01:55PM

Thanks!
That answers all but one of my questions.
The B11 was used only in '65-'66 correct? Trunk and door?

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 10, 2018 01:57PM

The pear head B-11 showed up as far back as the 50s, maybe longer. Usually seen on Cadillacs.

I'll add the aftermarket B- number to Caraholic's list, and correct 1968 info:

From 1936 through 1966 GM used the number 15 Groove on their key blanks.
The blanks were made by Briggs and Stratton.
The Octagonal Head part number is 32318 from B&S, H1098LA from ILCO, and B10 from Curtis and others.
The Pear Head part number is 32319 from B&S, O1098LA from ILCO, and B11 from Curtis and others.
In 1967 GM went to the "A" key for ignition with Octagon head. B-40
In 1967 GM went to the "B" key for glove box with Pear head. B-41
In 1968 GM went to the "C" key for ignition Octagonal Head B-42
In 1968 GM went to the "D" key for glove box Pear Head B-43
In 1969 GM went to the "E" key for ignition (Rectangle head) B-44
In 1969 GM went to the "H" key for glove box (Oval Head) B-45
In 1970 GM went to the "J" key for ignition (Rectangle head) B-46
In 1970 GM went to the "K" key for glove box (Oval Head) B-47
In 1971 GM went to the "A" key for ignition (Rectangle head) B-48
In 1971 GM went to the "B" key for glove box (Oval Head) B-49
In 1972 GM went to the "C" key for ignition (Rectangle head) B-50
In 1972 GM went to the "D" key for glove box (Oval head) B-51


In 1967 and 1968, GM was still using dash mounted ignition switches, so the small octagon and pear head keys were made with the new keyways, A B C and D.

In 1969, GM went to the locking steering column, and a larger rectangular key was needed to match the ears of the ignition switch, so the large head keys started in 1969. This meant the A B C & D blanks needed to be remade with the large heads, so the A large head started in 1971 with B-48, etc.

Finding the original small head A B C & D keys is much harder than the large heads, but keep looking at Ebay. The good news is when you fin them they are usually the GM/B&S/Rochester products keys, not Ilco, Curtis, etc. for you purists.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: junkman ()
Date: September 10, 2018 02:27PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Does anyone have a chart of key codes for tryout
> keys? I have a set for the B10s that is missing
> 10 keys.


I have a couple sets of tryout keys, but a couple of different manufacturers. The tryout keys don't use the same height codes as the standard keys. The way that they work, is by splitting the difference in each of the heights of the lands. An example would be if a standard key cutting code was 3 a tryout key would be 3 1/2 in height. There is also a very slight "rake" to the keys, and I believe that this is deliberate on the part of the tryout key manufacturers to prevent copies being made. If you have a very accurate key cutter, you might be able to reproduce a tryout key, however, I have had only moderate success using my key cutting equipment. They were never intended to be used as a regular key.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodstock CT... Located on the Connecticut / Massachusetts border, approximately 6 miles from the center of Southbridge MA. About 45 minutes from Hartford CT. 1 1/2 hours West of Boston MA. Woodstock CT to Los Angeles CA 2,937.1 miles. 1 Mile as the crow flies to Big Bird's nest.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 10, 2018 02:52PM

Thanks for the additional info Frank.
Junk - my tryout keys may not be as sophisticated as yours. I can't see the depth obviously but they look normal (no visible rake) and I'm sure my duplicator wouldn't have any issues with my tryout keys. I need to measure them I guess.
My set is supposed to have 64. Someone told me that is all the key combos available with that particular key. 5 depths 6 positions but they don't put more than 2 steps of difference between adjacent cuts or something like that. If these are the correct rules then I should be able to reproduce the missing keys.
?

Is anyone interested in trading blanks? I need B10, B11 and B51. B40-43 would be nice to have also. I have extra boxes of B48, B44 and I have tons of Ford, Chrysler and AMC blanks.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 10, 2018 08:02PM

Unlike "modern" GM cars, the Corvair late models match glove box with trunk, door with ignition. Later they did the ignition by itself and trunk/glove/door on one key.

This is helpful if a 65/69car still has the original locks, and the key for the trunk/glove is lost. I can open the glove box lock (without damaging the stainless steel bezel) and get the 4 digit code to make a trunk key.

Also, B-10, B-11 keys are four depths, not five. See page 1-4 of the 61 shop manual.

I have not seen B-40 to B-43 aftermarket key blanks in a lloooonnnng time.winking smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 10, 2018 10:34PM

It's 5 since you have to count no cut. There are 5 different wafers. I just keyed my '61 ignition cylinder to match the rest of the car.


"Unlike "modern" GM cars, the Corvair late models match glove box with trunk, door with ignition. Later they did the ignition by itself and trunk/glove/door on one key."
Years?

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 11, 2018 10:26AM

Joel, you did not look at the 61 manual pages 1-4, 1-5. It explains the cuts on these early keys. The no cut is #1, or C. Then there are three actual cut depths. For a total of 4 different sized tumblers. It also explains the different colors of tumblers back then.

When the letter key blanks came out, they added the 5th tumbler, aka the 4th actual depth of cut from no cut. So all assortments of tumblers made after 1966 came with 5 sizes of tumblers.

Late model Corvairs are 1965 to 1969. "Later" above referred to GM cars after sometime in the 70s. I do not know what year, but I do know 1970 was still on the ignition and door matched. And 1976 was ignition by itself.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 11, 2018 10:32AM

Thanks for the correction Frank. You are correct in that I did not look it up and just assumed you weren't counting one. Sorry about that.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: September 11, 2018 02:18PM

Although the Automotive aspect of Locksmithing was not my area of expertise, I did do some limited automotive work over the years.
I do remember that the typical Corvair key has six spaces (Cuts). Each space could be cut to any one of four depths. (For some reason I recall 5 depth's)
Those of you that have Code Books can look to verify this but as I recall, there needs to be an even number of even cuts and an even number of odd cuts.
This means a key could be cut as 233233 or 322322 but not 222333 or 333222.
There are also Maximum Adjacent Cut Specifications (MACS) that dictate what cut can be adjacent to another. I think that number may have been "2" but really do not recall.
This means a 1 depth cut can't be next to a 4 depth cut, but a 1 depth cut can be next to a 3 depth cut.
I used these guidelines when a working trunk key was needed but it was locked. I would decode the glovebox cylinder which only had 4 of the 6 tumblers in it.
Once I had decoded the glovebox cuts, I could usually figure out a working trunk key by following the guidelines and progression the cuts using no more than two blanks.

P.S.
I just looked at my Curtis Model 14 Clipper and it shows depth's 2, 3, 4, & 5.
I don't have my HPC 1200 Code Cards immediately available to double check them.
Now I have a better idea why I recall 5 depth's.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1965 Monza Coupe
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2018 02:28PM by Caraholic4life.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: 67 airvair ()
Date: September 11, 2018 02:19PM

One more interesting point on this subject is that of the knockouts with the key codes stamped on them.

when I look for key blanks, I avoid the ones with the knockouts already punched out (or with larger holes that mimic the missing knockouts) like the plague, for two reasons.

First, I hate the sloppy fit the larger holes cause on keychains and rings. But more importantly;

Secondly, so many times when I have gotten a Corvair, these codes are missing, and I have to pop out a lock to recover them. I flat out LIKE referring to the keys by their codes, because in the past, I have often had so many Corvairs that the key codes were the only way I could keep track of which keys fit what car.

So since I have the stamps, I stamp the key codes on ALL my car keys that don't have them, and preserve the ones that, luckily, still have them. I've even bought new cars and insisted the dealer NOT punch them out. I have gone so far that once I almost rejected delivery of one ordered car after the idiot mechanic punched them out.

Needless to say, I offer stamping service to all who would want the codes on their keys.

-Mark

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 11, 2018 02:36PM

More good info. Thanks caraholic!
Keep it coming.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: September 11, 2018 02:58PM

I know this is a crappy photo, but I used to stamp the vehicle info. on my keys when I had several similar keys. These are for my 1991 S-10.

Having or at least knowing the code number is always a good thing.

It is always a good idea to keep an "Original or Code Cut Key" as a spare and use duplicated or non original keys for daily use.

My logic is that if you lose, damage, or wear out the daily use key, you can make a good working copy from an original or code cut key.

Every time a key is duplicated, there is generally some error or imperfection in the duplicate key. If another duplicate is made from a duplicate, the error can increase (and even sometimes decrease) depending on the adjustment of the machine making the duplicate. Eventually the additional duplicate keys will not work as a few thousandths of an inch makes a big difference.
This will be more apparent in newer less worn cylinders than in older well worn cylinders.

The ideal duplicate key should be made of Brass even if it is Nickel Plated.
If it is Aluminum or another softer material, the key will wear faster.
If it is a Steel Key (Rare these days), the key won't wear but it is likely to wear the tumblers in the lock which are not as easy or inexpensive to replace.

When duplicate keys are made, be sure to check them first in the less used cylinders like the passenger door if it has a cylinder (newer vehicles often no longer have one). If trying your newer duplicate double sided convenience key, try it both ways to be sure it works both ways.
In NO circumstance should it ever be necessary to force the key to turn. If a key will not turn easily, there is a good reason. Applying force is more likely to result in damage to the key and or tumblers in the cylinder especially on newer vehicles.

IF you only have one working key for your vehicle, make a photo copy of it if possible (Both sides) and if all your keys go missing, a competent Locksmith can more than likely make a working key from that information. This does not apply to any electronic chips or programmable keys on newer vehicles.

A good place to record and store your key codes might be with the vehicle's title. Write the code information on a piece of paper and paper clip it to the title.

I hope some of this information is of benefit to some of you out there.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1965 Monza Coupe
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 11, 2018 08:35PM

Good info Caraholic.

There are usually codes stamped into the glove box lock cylinder. I learned the trick to remove the cylinder from the assembly without damaging the bezel. Code on every Corvair glove cylinder I have opened recently.

I now use my Brother P touch to label my key rings , place on plastic tag to cover advertising. Makes it easier for family members to match keys to cars. Holds up surprisingly well in my pockets.

My Curtis clipper has 1 to 5 depth cuts. 5 depths are for use with the GM 2X carriage to make the letter keys (1967 and newer).

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: September 11, 2018 08:45PM

Wow! Some great info here. THANKS to Mark, Frank, Joel, Junkman, and Caraholic. I read every response.
I just hope there is not going to be a test on this after this topic is finished.

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Re: Key blanks
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 11, 2018 09:04PM

I'm going to boil it all down, save a copy and print a copy for my key clipper.

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