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OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 09:57AM

I could use some help. Anyone out there with good math and geometry skills who would be willing to help?

I'm trying to build a new structure close to an existing building - before I take it the old structure down.
At a later date I want to be able to add on to the new structure - while making sure I have my final build angled correctly.

The problem I am having is figuring out the correct angle and position to place the new structure - with the old one still in place.

Addition - I also need to figure out rafter length - compared to pitch and build width.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2018 10:02AM by OttawaCorvairGuy.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: David Malcolm ()
Date: September 09, 2018 10:59AM

Sounds sufficient complicated that you might want to consult an architect. Nothing worse than getting to stage 3 with a whoops that won't work.

David Malcolm
1969 Monza PG Coupe
NJ near the Meadowlands

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 09, 2018 11:15AM

If you don't want to do it with math. Just get a piece 1/4" graph paper, or tape some together if one is not enough. Make each block equal 1'. You don't really need 3D. Make front, top and side view. You can than measure the angles with a protractor and the lengths by 1/4" = 1"


Old school, but it works. I could do it with math, but I have other stuff to do. Also, if you make a mistake with math you may not see it. With a drawing it will be apparent before you order or cut.

J.O.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: junkman ()
Date: September 09, 2018 11:40AM

I will second the comment about having an architect do your drawings, since you will need them for the building permit, unless there is no permit required. Even architects make mistakes in calculations, so it is almost guaranteed, that if you haven't the skills to do these calculations yourself with precision it will be money well spent to have it done correctly. You will also need to know how to calculate snow loads, pitch of roof, rafter size, etc.. My home was built to a snow load calculation for Minnesota, even though I live in Northeastern CT. One year, we had some really heavy snow storms, and my CoverIt, which was designed for the local snow load, collapsed as a result. I pulled a string to check the deflection of the triple lam beam in my garage and saw that it had a 3/4" deflection, so I knew that it wasn't going to fail. Since then, I have toyed with the idea of adding a 4th beam to the other 3 for a safety factor, but the building calculations say that it isn't necessary. I have a 4" in 12" pitch on that roof, and the roof rafters are 12" on 16" centers. I also have added a knee wall built out of 2"x8" to further strengthen the roof. That winter, about 5 or 6 homes in town collapsed from the snow load. You don't want to have this happening to you, so it needs to be properly designed and built to the plans. Anything less, and you are just gambling on the consequences every winter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 12:32PM

I don't need an architect for a simple pole barn build.
And land owners can submit there own drawings to get a permit.

Like I started in my first post. I just need to figure out the correct angle to place the new build or poles.

But with my head injury - I'm finding it extremely harder to figure more and more things out as time goes one.

NOTE: The portable garage is in place at one angle and I would like the large part of the garage (second stage of build - large enough for an Ultravan) to sit there at a SLIGHTLY different angle; once built.
This means I need to FIGURE OUT the correct placement and angle to put the poles for Marie's garage now. While I have the funds and the weather to do it!!



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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 12:32PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you don't want to do it with math. Just get a
> piece 1/4" graph paper, or tape some together if
> one is not enough. Make each block equal 1'. You
> don't really need 3D. Make front, top and side
> view. You can than measure the angles with a
> protractor and the lengths by 1/4" = 1"
>
>
> Old school, but it works. I could do it with math,
> but I have other stuff to do. Also, if you make a
> mistake with math you may not see it. With a
> drawing it will be apparent before you order or
> cut.

Thanks. I might have to do that.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 09, 2018 12:40PM

Quote
Junk
Even architects make mistakes in calculations

That's why this is an Engineering problem, not an architect problem. Architects do design to look right, Engineers make it not fall down. Think Frank Lloyd Wright Fallingwater....:

Graph paper works well! Old school, but easier than learning software for one problem.

Span tables are in all the building code books, and the residential codes can be usually viewed for free, maybe linked from your local jurisdiction's webpage. FYI, SYP (southern yellow pine) does NOT span what it used to. sad smiley

You want math? Get a copy of Machinery's Handbook. Trig functions are in the first few chapters.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 01:06PM

It has been a long road with lots of dreams waiting for the day.

Right Now:
I no longer have the other property hanging over my head with all it's expenses and maintenance issues.
I also sold the Wayne 100 and I have $$$$ to use on the build.

Left side - Marie's Garage is Stage 1 = Hoping to get done before winter.
UV Garage is Stage 2 = Next year or when I have the funds for it.
Greenhouse / Garden shed is Stage 3 = more than 2 years down the road.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 01:18PM

Sometimes it is nice to be in a smaller town / city.
Our Township will help with codes and snow load concerns.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: VairKing ()
Date: September 09, 2018 01:23PM

Build ultra van garage first and put Marie’s car in it this winter. Then next year if funds allow build the lean to for her car. If not enough cash for all that this year maybe hold off on concrete for ultra van garage?

_________________________________________
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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 01:44PM

VairKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Build ultra van garage first and put Marie’s car
> in it this winter. Then next year if funds allow
> build the lean to for her car. If not enough cash
> for all that this year maybe hold off on concrete
> for ultra van garage?


You volunteering to come and help tear down the portable garage - put it back up elsewhere and then moving everything back in it - so I can build the UV garage first?

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 09, 2018 02:08PM

Tony!1 That's what your "local" friends are for! I "use" mine all the time!





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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 02:52PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tony!1 That's what your "local" friends are for!
> I "use" mine all the time!


Easy to say.

But when one moves or has heavy work to be done - friends become too busy. ggg

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 09, 2018 04:57PM

Tony,
Use strings and stakes off of the covered porch you want it to line up with. Since it won't attach to the porch it won't have to be exact but you'll be able to easily get it withing a couple of inches. Once you get your stakes and strings in place you can measure diagonally between opposite corners the make sure it's square. If the ground changes elevation much just use taller stakes to get the strings level. String is cheap and you can't calculate wrong since you aren't doing any calculations. You will need a long enough tape measure.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: September 09, 2018 06:26PM

It would cost less and be simpler in the long run to build the center building first. The wall of the larger building will work as the wall for the lean to but not the other way around so you'll end up building two separate building touching each other, maybe save some with siding. If you could manage to build the larger building first it'll house the new car and the stuff in the portable building.
Is the reason you want to build the side buildings shorter because of the tree?
Another idea is to building the first building normally with an a-frame roof line. Later whenever you build the large building add a new roof as a lean-to over the first building, could remove the first roofline or cover it up, that way the geometry doesn't matter as much.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: September 09, 2018 08:03PM

Quote
Don
but not the other way around

Is this because when you add the extra height studs next year this will be a hinge point for the wall? I'm thinking studs. Is this a pole building? If so, then new poles will be set, hard to splice them.

Or is it because one must cut the roof shingles and sheathing (above the first built short wall) back to extend the wall up for the middle section to be built?

Ottawa, Is the floor going to be concrete before the next section is built?

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 08:52PM

moomba32 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would cost less and be simpler in the long run
> to build the center building first. The wall of
> the larger building will work as the wall for the
> lean to but not the other way around so you'll end
> up building two separate building touching each
> other, maybe save some with siding. If you could
> manage to build the larger building first it'll
> house the new car and the stuff in the portable
> building.
> Is the reason you want to build the side buildings
> shorter because of the tree?
> Another idea is to building the first building
> normally with an a-frame roof line. Later whenever
> you build the large building add a new roof as a
> lean-to over the first building, could remove the
> first roofline or cover it up, that way the
> geometry doesn't matter as much.


The reason for building the lento first was two fold.

1. I would not have to clear out, take down and put back up the portable garage, in another spot. It would give me until next year to have to deal with all that.

2. The lento build is smaller - less work, less materials and cost less.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 08:56PM

Frank DuVal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> but not the other way around
>
> Is this because when you add the extra height
> studs next year this will be a hinge point for the
> wall? I'm thinking studs. Is this a pole building?
> If so, then new poles will be set, hard to splice
> them.
>
> Or is it because one must cut the roof shingles
> and sheathing (above the first built short wall)
> back to extend the wall up for the middle section
> to be built?
>
> Ottawa, Is the floor going to be concrete before
> the next section is built?


The floor for Marie's garage and the garden shed/greenhouse on the other side are going to be gravel floors.
Only the large (main) garage for the Ultravan will be concrete.
Because I want to use that garage to work in too.
Or at least that is my thoughts on the build.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: OttawaCorvairGuy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 09:16PM

BTW - I was told that I could build the lento first with one high wall, that would be used later for the taller center garage.

By having 4 to 5 feet of each post in the ground and the end walls of the lento - would keep the building from collapsing until I built the rest of the building.


FYI - Short lento walls are going to be 8 feet tall and the center walls for the main or taller garage are going to be 14 to 16 feet tall.

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Re: OT - Need Math and Geometry Help...
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: September 10, 2018 05:12AM

The building should be fine with one wall higher than the other, a-frame style is mostly for the span strength, can use less wood by building the A designed bracing. I have 2x6 spanning 12 feet on my lean-to been there 8 ears or so and is fine but I have very little snow and it's a tin roof so pretty light.
How tall do you want the large building walls? My shop has 12 foot walls, is high enough to put a SUV on the lift and walk under it. I took my lean-to all the way to the top of the wall on the shop but I do extend further, I extended 24 feet with a set of posts in the center, the roof is about 7 feet high at the edge so I have 5 foot of drop over 24 feet, a bit more would be better. I like 4 feet of drop over 12 foot, if yo do this your high side wall will be 12 feet and that would work out to just continue the roofline if you want a large building with 12 foot walls that works out well. If instead you want a taller building then I would install the poles with the thought of using the high side poles as the wall of the large buildings so put in 20 foot poles four foot deep and build the lean-to up to 12 foot high on the 16 foot high poles. Now the poles will be at the correct height to build the large building later.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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