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Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 01, 2018 11:51PM

Ray Sedman gives so many options to set up the safeguard
What would give me the best power. ( testing all these different options is not easy when trying hard to have no detonation)

1) run a stock distributor boost retard and have Safeguard in NA mode (non turbo/switch 8 down) to take care of vacuum advance.
Let safeguard keep vacuum advance up and the Corvair vacuum retard bring timing down under boost and the safeguard knock detector being a back up.

2) run no stock distributor boost retard and have the safeguard in FI mode (Turbo mode/switch 8 up) and take care of boost retard and set the timing up high (24 degrees BTDC ?) for when there is no boost.

Just trying to find the best option to get me the maximum/safest power. I don't really care about fuel economy as it's not a daily driver

I have read the instructions 6 or more times but it may take lots of trial and error but would appreciate any advice from people being there before.
Thank you

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 02, 2018 06:35AM

I would ditch your Distributor.... install a 319 or one with similar mechanical curve... and let S-G take care of boost retard...

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 02, 2018 07:14AM

No matter what distributor you use, you want switch 8 up so you have boost retard. Because of how that Safegard works, you can actually just run the
the distributor timing more advanced and start the boost retard sooner, which
is effectively the same thing as having vacuum advance, and boost retard. Since
this may lead to hard starting, you will also want the "cranking retard" feature enabled, so it will retard the timing for starting.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: September 02, 2018 07:17AM

I don't think you want the stock pressure retard can in either situation. I did not remove mine but blocked the hose off by putting a ball bearing inside so the engine bay still looks stock.

Are you running with the MAP sensor connected to the manifold pressure gauge line?

What altitude are you at? I have learned that some of the advance features of the Safeguard operate erratically at altitude.

Running in NA mode the electronic vacuum advance will only be disabled if you set the "rate" knob fully CCW.

What is your goal or what are you trying to accomplish?

Are you running points or some other electronic ignition?

What coil are you using?

Do you still have the ballast resistor in place?

What is your baseline timing set at?

I agree with Matt above...in my experience the electronic advance on the Safeguard is difficult to get dialed in. In the end I just run with all advance off and use the Safeguard for boost retard, crank/start retard, rev limiter, and it's built in ignition "learning" features.

If you answer some of the questions above I may be able to help a bit. I have been playing with my Safeguard settings for 2 years now.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - SOLD ON BRING A TRAILER 4/30/2019 - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Thanks to all the awesome CCF, CF, COG, and CORSA members who helped me with the restoration!
Other fun stuff - 2020 Porsche GT4 - 1997 Spec Boxster Race Car #94 -- Haulmark enclosed race trailer "Trackbus"
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: September 02, 2018 07:22AM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No matter what distributor you use, you want
> switch 8 up so you have boost retard. Because of
> how that Safegard works, you can actually just run
> the
> the distributor timing more advanced and start the
> boost retard sooner, which
> is effectively the same thing as having vacuum
> advance, and boost retard. Since
> this may lead to hard starting, you will also want
> the "cranking retard" feature enabled, so it will
> retard the timing for starting.

Kevin the Safeguard will provide boost retard in both NA and FI mode. One thing to be aware of is if you are at altitude like I am in FI mode the Safeguard will not arm knock detection until you are at very heavy engine loads, and the engine will ping under light boost. Unfortunately (as I have learned) the Safeguard was designed really only to operate at sea level.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - SOLD ON BRING A TRAILER 4/30/2019 - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Thanks to all the awesome CCF, CF, COG, and CORSA members who helped me with the restoration!
Other fun stuff - 2020 Porsche GT4 - 1997 Spec Boxster Race Car #94 -- Haulmark enclosed race trailer "Trackbus"
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 02, 2018 09:06AM

Nick- I went to the J&S site to read up on the newer safegards, and while it is true that the unit does provide for vacuum advance and boost retard, it is not quite like having both at the same time. When switch 8 is down, (NA mode)
then the unit is armed to detect knock at less than 15" of vacuum, and with it
up, it will be armed to detect knock at less than 5". It is easy to see how there would be problems like you had when trying to run it in NA mode.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: September 02, 2018 10:09AM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nick- I went to the J&S site to read up on the
> newer safegards, and while it is true that the
> unit does provide for vacuum advance and boost
> retard, it is not quite like having both at the
> same time. When switch 8 is down, (NA mode)
> then the unit is armed to detect knock at less
> than 15" of vacuum, and with it
> up, it will be armed to detect knock at less than
> 5". It is easy to see how there would be problems
> like you had when trying to run it in NA mode.

Correct...the crux if my issue became that at altitude with lower atmospheric pressure the knock thresholds were all screwed up in FI mode. Running it in NA mode with the MAP port open to atmosphere and electronic advance disabled (timing set to stock 24BTDC) has worked well for me.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - SOLD ON BRING A TRAILER 4/30/2019 - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Thanks to all the awesome CCF, CF, COG, and CORSA members who helped me with the restoration!
Other fun stuff - 2020 Porsche GT4 - 1997 Spec Boxster Race Car #94 -- Haulmark enclosed race trailer "Trackbus"
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 12:59PM

Hi Nick
I live at 800m above see level but mostly drive it at 300m above see.

I run Petronix ignition with a flame thrower coil

I have the MAP connected

No ballast resistor

Timing is 24

I would like to get the most power with no detonation.

Seems like my altitude may be a issue

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 02, 2018 02:00PM

Your altitude is not a problem... restricting your self to only 24 degrees
with your safeguard is leaving a lot to be desired! you can and should be running your timing at more like 27 to 28 with the safeguard set to begin boost retard at zero, and then remove 1.2 to 1.5 degrees per psi. The extra
timing before boost will load the turbo a heck of a lot harder and the faster
rate will get you to your proper peak boost timing. You will be amazed at how much harder the car wants to accelerate when you smash it like that!
When I was running the stock turbo distributor with a safeguard, I ran a heck of a lot more static timing than I'm suggesting you run, but my compression ratio was a lot lower... my vague memory was 6.5:1, and I think
my static timing was 38 degrees. I could idle the car in first and SMASH the
throttle and get 5psi of boost, and no pinging. I'm within a few feet of sea
level, so what I'm suggesting you try is SAFE. Running 4 more degrees will speed the idle up, so you will want to re-adjust the idle back down, and you would want to use the cranking retard feature to retard the timing when starting, but other than that there's no other bugs to worry about.
Your boost may vary!!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 03:20PM

Thanks for that info Kevin. I was thinking along the same lines as what you just wrote above and will try that in my test drive today but I can try all the options.

Matt I have this distributor from Dave Binnie
I purchased 4 years ago his old twin carb setup (blow through modified carbs, big Turbo, custom large manifold etc etc.

Is this distributor a good model to instal instead of my stock Turbo and then I will get vacuum advance and the safeguard can take car of retard.

I thought the car would be slow so purchased Dave Binnies set up but when I received the Corvair I was very impressed, that and the fact I started to realise the price/rarity of 45k mile original matching numbers Corvair Corsa turbo and didn't want to blow the engine. So I am keeping my eye out for a spare engine to build into a 250hp beast. They come up for sale every year or so in New Zealand.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2018 03:29PM by Dazanz.

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 02, 2018 04:24PM

Better than either turbo dist. Set initial at 10-12 deg.. not 6.

[autoxer.skiblack.com]

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: September 02, 2018 05:33PM

I think your optimal settings are variable depending on what you are running...I am on the stock setup, stock YH and stock Turbo. I have 95HP cylinder heads with CR at slightly above 8:1. Kevin it looks like you and the OP have some pretty souped up setups, nice!!!

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - SOLD ON BRING A TRAILER 4/30/2019 - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Thanks to all the awesome CCF, CF, COG, and CORSA members who helped me with the restoration!
Other fun stuff - 2020 Porsche GT4 - 1997 Spec Boxster Race Car #94 -- Haulmark enclosed race trailer "Trackbus"
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: September 02, 2018 05:34PM

There is another option. The newest Safeguards have a direct Magnetic input connection. Several guys are running my distributor, converted (by me) for a direct mag output into the safeguard. You can run a vacuum advance - which disappears under boost - and vary the mechanical advance to mimic whatever you want, there are several sleeves to limit the amount of advance to what you want. And different springs to change the rate. The adjustments are right under the rotor, easy to get to. There are even a couple of these already in New Zealand!

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 08:47PM

Tried switch 8 down with stock pressure retard blocked off and different retard settings but was getting a lot of detonation just as turbo was cutting in and also if I had timing more than 24 btdc lots of detonation before the turbo cut in.
Seemed to have Lot less detonation with the switch in N/A mode and playing with the start and rate switches. But it felt like it was missing a bit of power

I am confused though as I have the sensitivity dialled to maximum and I am still getting detonation.

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 02, 2018 08:54PM

Did you build the engine? Ever have the heads off? What fuel octane are you running?

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 09:42PM

I think the engine is untouched done 45k miles. I could get a great 98 Octane at BP where I used to live but at our new location there is only 95 Octane.


New clarks road tested carb, New fuel pump, fuel filter, air filter,
Any Vair mechanics coming to Queenstown winking smiley

[www.queenstownnz.co.nz]

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 02, 2018 10:28PM

That octane number is in RON?

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 10:51PM

Yes Ron

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: Dazanz ()
Date: September 02, 2018 10:57PM

So would that be 84 in MON. Is that too low an octane for a turbo Corvair and the reason I may be getting detonation

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Re: Best safeguard set up option for a turbo
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 02, 2018 10:57PM

That's approx. 92 here...should be OK...

Let's see what the SafeGuard owners add...

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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