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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:05PM

I can't even get the negative jumper cable attached to the starter.
HUGE big spark. Scared the crap out of me.
I've seen this test on youtube and when you attach the positive and negative there should be nothing till you touch the S-terminal of the solenoid. I can't even get to that step.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:10PM

When the Solenoid 'pulls in' it pushes a round copper disc against the two LARGE +12 volt terminals, causing the motor to run.

IF the Solenoid IS NOT 'pulled in' but the motor still starts then the 'disc' is stuck to the terminals! When the Solenoid is 'relaxed' (not pulled in, gear not pulled out) the "switch" (the disc) should not be touching the contacts.

I would check this first. The Starter should not run if the Solenoid in not engaged!

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:10PM

?? starter on bench or floor attach negative cable to starter mounting flange. Hold starter solidly with one hand while contacting big wire post and s post with cable from positive post. I like floor best.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 01:11PM by TerribleTed.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:13PM

Is the starter in the car? You are correct that if you have the negative attached to the body of the starter and then touch positive to only the starter battery wire post it should do nothing. If it does the solenoid is faulty. Starter motor should not spin until grounded and power at battery wire post and S terminal

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 01:15PM by TerribleTed.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:18PM

Starter is out of car on the floor. Did the test with it lying on the floor in case it jumped all over the place.

Does it matter if I attached the battery positive jumper cable to the big battery terminal on the solenoid first and then try to attach to negative? I always thought it was safe to attached positives first and then negatives.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:20PM

Does not really matter. but is easier for this to clamp the jumper cable on the starter mounting flange so you can manipulate the other cable to touch big post and then rotate it onto Little S post while holding starter with other hand

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:22PM

It is better to connect cables at the battery positive first and then negative when installing a battery as negative less likely to make bit spark and cause battery to explode. It is even better to make the final negative connection when connecting a battery at the chassis ground away from the battery all together:0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 01:23PM by TerribleTed.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:22PM

Well, it sounds like the solenoid to me then.
Do you think I'll be successful replacing the solenoid switch only. No sure how universal these things are. I see several listed by NAPA.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:24PM

so you connected ground and only the Big starter terminal and the starter runs?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:24PM

Starter running and gear not pushed out?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:28PM

yes, connected big positive and then tried to connect the ground without touching the S-terminal of the solenoid.

It did run but the spark scared me so much I stopped. It shouldn't spin at all unless I connect the S-terminal to the positive.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:28PM

Sorry. I must not be making this very clearsad smiley

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:35PM

that is correct the starter solenoid seems to be bad. It is the switch that give power to starter motor. The contacts may have fused before you got it turned off the other day. Yes parts store may indeed have suitable replacement. Once you get it and install it verify starter function again before reinstalling. Should not run until positive volts supplied to S terminal with positive already on batt post and ground on starter body. Assuming all is well after solenoid you can reinstall starter and try it again. We are still not sure however that there may not be a ring gear bind so be ready to quickly disconnect battery if starter runs on again.

One good way to do this is to actuate the starter from the engine bay instead of key switch. turn key switch to run (assuming you are trying to start engine as well. Have extra 10 gauge or so wire in engine bay attached to positive batt post. Touch this wire into engine bay connector where S terminal wire plugs into engine harness. When you touch the purple S wire starter will turn when you pull your extra wire away it should stop. This way if starter overruns you can quickly pull off the battery post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:36PM

No you are clear I was typingsmiling smiley

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:39PM

OK got it.
I think the next course of action will be to see if I can replace the solenoid switch from the local parts store.

I like the idea of remote starting with the wire.

That's for all the input. I'll keep you posted.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:42PM

I have a 2 foot or so piece of 10 gauge wire with a small battery clip on one end I keep just for this purpose. there is usually enough gap to just take the other twisted wire end and poke in into the top of the plug in the engine bay to engage the starter as needed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: July 06, 2018 04:25PM

Get with Clark's and get a replacement starter, if it is a new one from them. They are good for their products.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2018 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ Z71 Centennial Edition
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 05:06PM

I wonder what starter he got. They offer with and without solenoid. I would still like to know why the starter was changed in the first place...might be relevant to recent issues.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 05:07PM by TerribleTed.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 07, 2018 12:38PM

The starter was a Clarks rebuild with new solenoid and nose. I'm not going to go after them for a new solenoid. It was probably something I did that caused the short.
The reason I put in a new starter was because I broke the nose. I had no idea of the condition of the original starter, so I just replaced it all when the engine was out.

So I went out this morning and bought a new solenoid. Installed it on the starter and tested it on the floor. Works fine. Connected positive and negative jumpers. Wire between positive and S-terminal. Gear pushed out and spun.

So I guess next will be to install again and see what happens. Way to hot to try this today. It's 31 degrees C outside. Hotter in my garage.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 07, 2018 01:46PM

Old starter had broken nose that is a big key (unless it happened dropping in on the floor) Broken noses are caused by out of round or damaged ring gears on the flywheel or torque convertor.

Is the car a stick shift or automatic? Bad flywheels are almost 100% normal unless they have been changed in the past with an upgraded unit.

The fact that the starter jammed and did not release this time also points to a flywheel issue. If you simply reinstall this starter and there is a flywheel issue you will likely break the nose on this new starter and be right back to where you were.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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