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Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 08:57AM

I'm not very good with electrical, so please forgive me.

I recently installed an electrical fuel pump. I added a simple switch to aid in priming empty carburetor bowls. I think I have it wired correctly, but who knows?


First time I restarted, I noticed the car would immediately want to crank with the key was in the 'on' position. (not good). I stopped. Tried again. This time it seemed normal. didn't start during the on position, gas pump was working.

I tried to start, but was not getting much. Suddenly large backfire! OK. Distributor is 180 degrees out. Fixed that and the car started. Kind of rough and wouldn't idle. (this is a car I have been working on for years and only had running a couple of times). Had an oil like at the pressure sensor, so I stopped and fixed it.

Tried again and it ran but still was kind of rough. Did a compression test and all were either 150 or 125.


Tried to start again. Large puff of smoke out left carb and then the starter motor kept on turning. No grinding of the starter teeth, just running. I guess the solenoid didn't engage?


Turned the ignition to off. THE STARTER KEPT GOING!!

Pulled the negative off the battery to stop everything. Now every time I try to connect the negative to the battery I get a huge spark!!


Suggestions? I gather there must be a short somewhere but where to I start?
I disconnected the fuel pump primer switch but still the same.


Thank in advance. Ken

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:10AM

First, where did you connect the fuel pump wiring?

Second, did it ever do this before the fuel pump was added?

Have you looked at the solenoid and seen if the yellow wire is on R and the Purple wire is on S, and neither of these small terminals/wiring is touching the large terminals?

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:12AM

First disconnect the positive cable battery, then disconnect positive cable from the starter and isolate it from anything. reconnect positive cable to battery.

Try to hook up negative cable to battery, large spark then issue is body wiring. No spark, repair/rebuild/replace starter.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2018 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ Z71 Centennial Edition
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:13AM

The fuel pump is connected to the fuse box at the radio circuit.
never happed before. Only ran a couple of times, but with a mechanical fuel pump.
I'll have to check out the connection of the R and S but I think its' good. I will double check. Maybe something is touching.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:17AM

Al,
I'll try isolating the starter and see what happens. If it's the starter, I'll be mad. It's new from Clarks.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:31AM

First, disconnect the electric pump so that won't influence your troubleshooting. I am pretty sure you have wiring incorrect at the starter solenoid, as Frank mentions.(Or a bad solenoid) The solenoid has 12 volts at it all the time via the big wire from the battery. The other two smaller wires each have a function.The thicker, Purple wire is fed by your ignition switch when you turn it to the start position. When that happens, the solenoid engages the starter gear (mechanically shoving the drive of the starter onto the ring gear) it also closes the circuit that powers the actual starter motor, it connects the thick battery cable feed to power the starter motor. When the solenoid engages the starter, it also sends 12 volts out that little yellow wire. That wire is eventually hooked up to your coil, to provide a full 12 volts while the engine is being cranked over. so, if the starting motor was turning without engagement, the solenoid was not shoving the gear into place. Since the power to rotate the starter is only switched on when the solenoid has closed that switch, either you have an internal solenoid issue, or some other wire is hitting the exposed terminal to spin the starter. First check to see if the wires are all hooked up correctly. If they look okay (see Frank's note above) disconnect the hot lead on the battery and go ahead and remove the starter and take the solenoid loose to inspect it.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 09:40AM

All good ideas. I'll have to get out in the garage this pm.
I'll report back later in the day.

Thanks

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 05, 2018 10:31AM

Sounds like starter is stuck engaged at the flywheel currently. I am betting your big spark is the starter trying to turn when you connect the cables. New starter likely not at fault. Bad flywheel or ring gear is more likely. Is the car a stick shift? Virtually all original flywheels are bad at this point having loose rivets that allow the ring gear to run off center which can easily bind a starter, break starter noses etc. You said the starter was new, Why was it changed? Broken nose? On an automatic trans car the ring gears can still be worn by a bad starter and sometimes ring gear welds break allowing the ring gear to run off center which can bind the starter, break noses etc. As suggested above disconnect the starter wires and see if you big spark goes away. If it does remove the starter make sure the gear is returned back and that the nose is not broken. Re-install the starter and again connect your battery. No big spark? Problem was starter stuck engaged but problem not fixed yet. At this point need to look very closely and the ring gear and flywheel or torque convertor.

The rough running and operation issues are most likely carb and ignition related not related to anything else you have done. The only possible relation I see is if you powered the fuel pump from the wire feeding the coil which might reduce voltage to the ignition. Power the fuel pump from a source other that the coil feed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 12:27PM

So I removed the connections to the starter.
Connected the positive and negative to the battery. No large spark.
Made connection again making sure I had the right connections and no cross touching. Same problem.
So probably the starter, which is going to be real pain to remove.

What about the ignitions switch? Could there be a problem there? Might be a little easier to try to work with the first?
It's a new ignition switch from Clarks. Maybe I'll remove it and see if all the connections are tight etc. It did work before, so the actual wiring should be ok.


Back out to the garage.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: July 05, 2018 01:08PM

whitey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about the ignitions switch? Could there be a
> problem there?

Might be the ignition switch but you can do another quick test at the starter.

Only hook up the single thick positive wire to the starter and then make the connections at the battery once again. If you get a big spark and the starter tries to turn, then the issue is the starter because in this test, the ignition switch is not in the circuit.


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 110 Convertible
65 Monza 4DR 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T w/5-speed







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2018 01:09PM by azdave.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: rowin4 ()
Date: July 05, 2018 01:13PM

Reading through your post you say the starter keeps running. If the solenoid is kicking in you are missing teeth on the flywheel. On your fuel pump, are you going to use it just to prime the carbs? If so change the toggle switch to a push button starter type . Forgetting to turn off the switch may cause a fire from flooded carbs.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 01:53PM

I took the starter out. Everything looks normal. Nose not broken. Gear retracted.
I will have to start reading the shop manual to see what I can determine with the starter on the bench.

Any suggestions are welcome. As stated before, electrical is a mystery to me.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: July 05, 2018 02:27PM

With starter out and positive cable isolated, Connect positive cable and see if you have power to the solenoid wire. Purple, I believe. Power indicates ignition switch is in start position (or shorted to start position).

If not, mechanical like has been advised before with the ring gear.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2018 Chevrolet Silverado LTZ Z71 Centennial Edition
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: July 05, 2018 02:37PM

whitey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I took the starter out. Everything looks normal.
> Nose not broken. Gear retracted.
> I will have to start reading the shop manual to
> see what I can determine with the starter on the
> bench.
>
> Any suggestions are welcome. As stated before,
> electrical is a mystery to me.

Ken easy check of starter operation on the bench:

hook one jumper cable from + battery to large post
on solenoid

next other jumper cable from - battery to mounting
ear of starter nose

next use screwdriver between + on solenoid to S
terminal on solenoid (where purple wire was connected
in the car). The starter will instantly be running
when you go between the two posts. The drive will be
thrown towards the end of the nose. Just a moment of
this is all that is needed. Remove screwdriver from
the contacts and starter will stop and drive pulled
back into starter nose.

Hang onto starter with one hand while doing the above.
If starter is working correctly it will try to jump
off the bench. Good luck

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: July 05, 2018 02:40PM

Steve's test is correct but you do need really good cables. A lot of the jumper cables I've seen aren't big enough.

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 05, 2018 02:53PM

From what you posted above it seems the starter was stuck. It became unstuck when you removed it. If the ring gear is out of round the starter gets stuck engaged by the starter gear becoming jammed together with the ring gear on the flywheel/torque convertor. Removing the starter will release this jamb. bench test the starter as Steve suggests above. Reconnect the battery cables before installing the starter making sure no starter wires are touching anything that could make a short. With the ignition switch off make sure there is no voltage on the starter wire that goes to the S terminal (generally the larger gauge purple wire). Use a meter or your could quickly touch to ground and see if it sparks. If there is power on this wire with the ignition switch off then there is a problem at the switch. If not your problem likely lies with the ring gear and it is time to manually turn the engine and inspect the ring gear for wear, broken teeth etc. Use a wrench on the crank pulley to turn, and either look through the starter hole (for a stick shift car) or through the big air intake hole on the right side of the bellhousing (on and automatic car). Damaged or broken teeth are tell tale of an issue that must be repaired (particularly if the starter continues to stick).

Again I ask Why was the starter changed in the first place??

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 05, 2018 03:10PM

Wow. All great ideas. These I can understand.
I’ve quit the garage for the day. Into happy hour beer right now.

I will start testing tomorrow pm and report back.

Thank you everyone.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 06, 2018 04:57AM

Good stuff so far. Along mechanical lines I would add that it's much easier to turn the engine with a wrench if you remove the spark plugs.
When checking the ring gear through the starter opening you could try to measure whether it's out of round in the opening.

Along electrical lines, I would add that the purple wire operates the starter and connects to the terminal marked S. I strip a little off the end of a wire and jam it in the connector at the left front of the engine to use as a remote starter switch when touched to the battery +, although there's risk of battery explosion when making a spark. You can use a test light at this location to see what's going on with the chassis wiring if desired.

When I'm trying to nurse a flywheel along that's going bad, it helps to push in the clutch when using the starter.

Years ago on my daily driver 61 I had a starter that would not turn off. I just replaced it with another used one and motored on. There was nothing wrong with the flywheel. I don't remember disassembling the starter to find the cause. I had a lot of starters laying around back then. I suppose this doesn't really apply to your situation with new parts.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: whitey ()
Date: July 06, 2018 12:59PM

Did a quick check of the starter removed from the car today.
With jumper cables, attached the battery + to the solenoid +. (where the big black wire went).
Jumper cable attached to the battery - and then touch to starter casing. Huge spark. The gear spun as well but it happened so quick I didn't even see if it pushed out as well.

Guess it's the starter. I will start to take apart and see if I can see anything obvious.

Ken W. - Winnipeg, Manitoba
64 Monza 927


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Re: Electrical confusion
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 06, 2018 01:03PM

whitey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did a quick check of the starter removed from the
> car today.
> With jumper cables, attached the battery + to the
> solenoid +. (where the big black wire went).
> Jumper cable attached to the battery - and then
> touch to starter casing. Huge spark. The gear
> spun as well but it happened so quick I didn't
> even see if it pushed out as well.
>
> Guess it's the starter. I will start to take
> apart and see if I can see anything obvious.


Try that again. sounds like the starter is working fine. Gear jumps out and motor runs all at once and vigorously. I would not disassemble a functional new starter. I have found Clark's rebuilt starters to be quite reliable. I really think your issue is not in the starter proper. as soon as you flinched and the power came off the starter the gear jumped back to rest is my guess. Happens in an instant.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2018 01:05PM by TerribleTed.

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