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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: March 06, 2018 06:22AM

My buddy was restoring an early 60s Alfa-Romeo Spyder Veloce with a rebody. He said the Alfa club had a suggested and acceptable process for doing a rebody when you own both cars. I didn't pay much attention to what he was saying and he sold the project before completing it, too many irons in the fire.

There must be an acceptable process in the old car world. Maybe not.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 06, 2018 07:36AM

My problem is, I legally own both cars, but there is not proof of prior ownership. I paid cash to the seller who also got it with no paperwork. I suppose I could get a written bill of sale from the seller, but what good would that do since he never had paperwork either. Prior to his rescuing it, who knows?

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: March 06, 2018 07:52AM

Horndoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My problem is, I legally own both cars, but there
> is not proof of prior ownership.

Just trying to file this away for future use, but other than possession being 9/10 of the law, how is it again you can prove legal ownership?

'29 Ford Model A Tudor
'61 700 Lakewood 110 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.
'70 Dodge Challenger R/T 440 4 speed

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 06, 2018 10:11AM

That is a good question...

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: March 06, 2018 10:18AM

Wagon Master Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Horndoc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My problem is, I legally own both cars, but
> there
> > is not proof of prior ownership.
>
> Just trying to file this away for future use, but
> other than possession being 9/10 of the law, how
> is it again you can prove legal ownership?

Most states have a process for lost title. It gets complicated when it's a vintage car before the days of cradle(factory) to grave VIN registration. In my state I believe a bill of sale will suffice on a vintage vehicle to confirm ownership along with a VIN verification where a police officer or other designated authority can match the VIN on the car (in person) to the bill of sale.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Recreational Mechanic/CORSA Member/COG Supporting Member/US Navy Veteran
Other fun car: Porsche 911 GT3
Boring daily drivers
Northern Colorado, USA



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2018 10:19AM by Nickshu.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Tom Turbo ()
Date: March 06, 2018 03:44PM

I'm not sure about your area, but Texas has what they call a bonded title. YOu put up a minimal bond and you get a title for the car. After a time, I'm not sure how long, you get a genuine title. Try it.

If it don't go, chrome it!
Stroker McGurk, 1961.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Mountainman ()
Date: March 06, 2018 05:21PM

This seems too good to be true but also seems to have worked for many folks:



John Cummings

El Paso, IL


1965 Corsa Coupe Metallic Blue 140hp
1965 Corsa Coupe Sierra Tan 140hp (currently under restoration)
1965 Corsa Coupe Crocus Yellow 140hp (currently non op)
1965 Corsa Convertible Regal Red 180hp (sold)


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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: curt ()
Date: March 07, 2018 06:18AM

I had a 1948 Kaiser, the VIN # is stamped on the block. It was very hard to read. I was bringing the car into KS. from Iowa. Car was well restored! The state trooper looked the car over, inspected the car, and said this thing needs to be retitled. I got a new vin number and a new tag placed on to the car. Block vin #'s are a problem, just own a car with the vin # on the block and then try to work on the engine. Paint the block, change the block, etc. I like the Corvair vin # ,located on the dash, easy to read. Other areas the #s are difficult to read. 1969 Monza.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Date: March 07, 2018 06:40AM

Phil Dally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are forgetting about the hidden VIN.
>
> Don't do it...very bad idea and a crime!!!

The California DMV now requires two VINs when titling and registering out-of-state cars, so I worked diligently to make the hidden VIN behind the front cross member legible - paint,rust, gradoo removal. Then I hired a state-authorized VIN Verifier to sign off on the title application. To my surprise, he said that he only needed to see one VIN. A word to the wise...

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: March 07, 2018 07:18AM

Can a person go to the DMV with a VIN and find out who's name the title is in?
I suppose some former owner's would be nice, some would be greedy, some would have moved and some would be dead.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: toytron ()
Date: March 07, 2018 08:43PM

Yes in Illinois I had the same issue. The DMV gave me the correct paperwork to get the legal title. I had to contact the previous owner who was very helpful and signed the paperwork.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: March 07, 2018 10:06PM

"Can A Person Just Go to the DMV and find the Name-details of the prior registered owner"?
------- THE ANSWER JIM, TO THAT QUESTION IS NO!
Once upon a time, that was possible in some states, possibly most states....
IN THE 1980's, AN ACTRESS IN A TOP-10 Television ShOW WAS MURDERED.
The killer went to the California DMV and possibly with only her vehicle's LICENSE PLATE number, was able to get the DMV to give him her address of record.
I seem to recall that the actress was Rebeccca Shaeffer who played the sister of Pam Dawber formerly of Mork & Mindy. The hit TV show was called MY SISTER SAM if I remember correctly. This happened not too long after John Lennon was murdered and the assassination attempt on President Reagan.
My guess is that had happened before, probably mostly with mobsters in witness protection, and other famous people and celebrities. That tragedy simply made it plain to see that things had to change with respect to DMV operations & information policies.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: sawdog81 ()
Date: March 07, 2018 11:05PM

Quote
Horndoc
The body I will be using hasn’t been registered since 1973.
There's no way that VIN will be in any state's system.

I agree with Nickshu: I would swap the three ID's by cutting and welding. If you don't tamper with the rivets you are OK.

It's not a crime if you're not trying to defraud anyone to make a quick buck. For example, people have been prosecuted for passing off common Mustangs as Shelby's.

Tom in Murphy, TX
'66 Monza Cpe 110/4spd
'69 Monza Cvt 110/PG #4858

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: swi66 ()
Date: March 08, 2018 04:48AM

Here is the simple way of thinking about it.

It is against the law.

[codes.findlaw.com]

And it is probably not wise to talk about it on the internet........

That said, it has been done too many times, for a lot of reasons, some good, many bad.
Technically, you could re-body the car, and if it was stolen at one time, the original owner is entitled to get it back. That has happened more than once.

Contact the DMV and ask a "what if" question.

Gary Swiatowy

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: March 08, 2018 07:28AM

Read this if you want to see what trouble switching VINs can be:

[forums.vintage-mustang.com]

In a nutshell:
Guy from NY bought a 67 Mustang Coupe, changed it over to a Fastback, then sold it as a 67 Fastback with title (title not in his name). Buyer from another state tried to title the Mustang in his state. DMV in buyer's state refused to issue title because his title (a duplicate) wasn't the newest title of record. Buyer called seller, seller stated that he would send correct title. Title was for a 67 Coupe, door tag was for a 67 Fastback (FYI - door tag on Mustangs cannot be used as legal VIN). Visible VIN on driver's side fender was covered over with welded plate. Hidden VIN was for 67 Coupe. Buyer paid Fastback price for a Coupe, thinking it was a Fastback. Seller stated to buyer "Not my problem, you have correct title".
Problem ongoing.

Point being, take the time to get the title for the 65 you are rebuilding.

VIN swapping is ILLEGAL, even if both parties are aware of the swap and are OK with it.
Somewhere down the line, a future buyer may not be OK with it and cause a stink. Then who will be the one on the hook for illegally swapping VINs?
Answer is the person who just sold the vehicle to the buyer who raised a stink.
How would you prove you weren't the one who switched the VIN?

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: March 08, 2018 09:46AM

Quote
Curt
I like the Corvair vin # ,located on the dash, easy to read. Other areas the #s are difficult to read. 1969 Monza.

All cars sold in the US should have the dash mounted VIN in 1969 and newer, not just your Corvair. Older Corvairs (and most other cars) do not have the dash mounted VIN, except certain 1968 models.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Jim Stukenborg ()
Date: March 08, 2018 11:39AM

I must be the only person who doesn't know here the hidden VIN is since no one else asked about it. Where is it on a Corvair? Jim

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 08, 2018 11:56AM

Different place for the different yr. / model

Pics are in our STICKY FAQ's





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: March 08, 2018 11:57AM

Inside front right fender.
> . Hidden VIN < <

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: 67 airvair ()
Date: March 08, 2018 04:08PM

ALL cars sold in the US from model year 1968 on have the VIN in the windshield, even Corvairs.

-Mark

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