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Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:24AM

I have 2 65 Monza coupes. I am going to be rebodying them. The body I will be using hasn’t been registered since 1973. I have no paperwork for it. I could conceivably (not saying I will do it)swap vin tags and stickers over to the “new” car.
I know that this has been done many times. My question is, will any authority really know or care if I do this? I’m in New York and could go through the trouble of getting a valid registration.
Thoughts?

Paul Abel
Rochester, NY

66 Monza 110 4sp.
67 Monza convertible 95 4sp.
2010 Chevy HHR

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: flamingchariots ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:26AM

My opinion: Get the valid registration.
Out-of-state inspections would catch swapped tags for sure.

Kevin
Medina, OH

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:30AM

You are forgetting about the hidden VIN.

Don't do it...very bad idea and a crime!!!

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:35AM

I know what to do. I was just wondering in whaat type of situation would the vin tag and hidden vin even be checked.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:37AM

Can't you talk to the DMV about it? They may have a legal process to do it.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:42AM

I dont see an Issue, A good portion of the Stingers out there have been rebodied, as long as both Vins are not stolen and your upfront that the car has been rebodied if sold. Mike

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:53AM

Horndoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...in what type of situation would the vin tag and hidden vin
> even be checked.

Don't know about other states but in Arizona, DMV does a physical inspection of any vehicle brought in from out of state. I've had several cars get flagged as suspicious and had to go to the State Police garage to get them cleared so I could get the title and registration.


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 110 Convertible
65 Monza 4DR 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T w/5-speed




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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: March 05, 2018 07:09AM

It's the special GM rivets that are difficult to do.

For me, something being sold for big money is a different philosophy than something I'm just running and driving. I've been the last owner of several marginal Corvairs that I've used up driving in the Winter.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: March 05, 2018 09:49AM

Horndoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know what to do. I was just wondering in whaat
> type of situation would the vin tag and hidden vin
> even be checked.

Washington checks the hidden VIN on every vehicle that comes in with out of state registration. Idaho checks the hidden VIN whenever there's a discrepancy.

It's not just an ethical question, it's a legal question. Switching VIN tags is a FELONY in every state.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 05, 2018 10:14AM

Thanks guys!
No one checks anything here in NY. I want to keep it legal. I would be worried if I sold it someone from out of state if it had switched tags.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: March 05, 2018 10:57AM

Of Course, the re-bodied Stingers are racecars - racecars get "used up". But if it has to be licensed and registered, I would go through the process.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: March 05, 2018 11:27AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Horndoc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know what to do. I was just wondering in
> whaat
> > type of situation would the vin tag and hidden
> vin
> > even be checked.
>
> Washington checks the hidden VIN on every vehicle
> that comes in with out of state registration.
> Idaho checks the hidden VIN whenever there's a
> discrepancy.
>
> It's not just an ethical question, it's a legal
> question. Switching VIN tags is a FELONY in every
> state.

It may be that Washington is SUPPOSED to check every vehicle, BUT When I moved here from PDX, they did not even look out the window to see if I even had the car in the parking lot.
In fact, one of the cars was switched over, while still parked in PDX!

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: March 05, 2018 11:49AM

Horndoc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I want to keep
> it legal. I would be worried if I sold it to someone
> from out of state if it had switched tags.

I would worry more about the hoax being revealed by forum members than DMV. These days it's not unusual for a new Corvair owner to post the info about a purchase and have someone notice little discrepancies that lead to bigger discoveries.

Last month, on CorvairForum, the members there discovered a fraud when a 65 Monza was pretending to be a 66 Corsa convertible with factory A/C. The buyer was not too happy to find out he had been duped.


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 455 Toro V8
65 Monza 110 Convertible
65 Monza 4DR 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T w/5-speed




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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Don1963 ()
Date: March 05, 2018 11:50AM

Yes, It is illegal, and probably unethical. The fact that it is now published would really scare me. I'm just sayin...

66 Corsa 110 4spd 3.55 posi

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Vin ()
Date: March 05, 2018 01:41PM

If it was something you did to get a legal, registered car for yourself to use up in a free world it might not be a big deal. But the problem is way leads upon way and eventually the car will pass on to someone else and knowledge of what was done will be lost and unsuspecting people may get something other than what they thought they were getting. Even if we dont care what the State or Government think, that is the real problem it creates for our fellow hobbyists.


Vin
Dayton, OH
1965 Corvair Monza Convertible (4 speed)

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: March 05, 2018 04:16PM

The bare bodies were all the same as they rolled down the line at Fisher Body. They they got a VIN stamp...and they were still all the same. Easy to cut out the hidden VIN locations and all tags en bloc and weld them onto the new body...and it's still another body just the same as all the others that left Fisher Body.

Make your own decision. To me a rebody, if done correctly, is no different than a car that's had a new front clip put on it, or a new fender, suspension swap, etc. They are only original once. In my opinion you do have an obligation to tell anyone who you sell it on to what was done.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Recreational Mechanic/CORSA Member/COG Supporting Member/US Navy Veteran
Other fun car: Porsche 911 GT3
Boring daily drivers
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: Horndoc ()
Date: March 05, 2018 05:15PM

All great advice! That’s what I wanted was to hear everyone’s thoughts. Since NY makes it pretty easy to register old cars, I’ll keep it on the up and up.

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: March 05, 2018 06:56PM

I agree with Nickshu.
Contact your State's Department of Motor Vehicles for possible options to do such a RE-BODY legally.
As you might know, there were complete replacement unibodies that were available for a time, for MGB, AUSTIN-HEALEY, Triumphs, and the 1967 Mustang Fastback. (those are just a few that I'm certain of---------there are possibly others)
Now as you can imagine, the cost for these unibodies, made from the original tooling (British Motor Heritage Approved) in the case of the English cars that I mentioned, the cost for these complete bodies was six times the market price of the typical #3 condition driver MGB. Still the production run of about seven thousand units sold out almost immediately, and at least two other production runs in the decade that followed also sold out.
There obviously is a proper LEGAL way to do such a complete BODY changeover.
Now, whether the STATE you reside in has proceedures that require a NEW, state issued VIN, I do not know. Some states did that in the past with RECOVERED STOLEN vehicles and comingled Salvage Vehicles into an inspected, safety inspected state approved vehicle.
Current Laws may not be what they once were because there has been a huge issue with TOTALED FLOOD VEHICLES being wriiten off as Salvage, and unscrupulous entrepreneurial type persons buying them at Salvage Auction in one state and then getting Salvage Title in that State, and then "selling" to family member in another state where Title Laws aren't as strict, and having that family person obtain TITLE which no longer lists the car as SALVAGE......and then the family member "sells" car back to original person who then obtains Clean Title in that state where the car was originally SALVAGE.......thus this car becomes exponentially more valuable in mkt resale vale...... Somebody that buys this 2014 vehicle might not be sharp and savvy enough to check the car's records via Dealer Computer System,Car-Fax & similar records reporting agencies. Sometimes major insurance companies like USAA and others will know and alert you that what appears to be a CLEAN TITLE vehicle has been Laundered and has potential issues.
Sometimes the major insurance companies miss this information because if there is not already a "paper trail" of reported dealer servicing, accidents,odometer discrepancy.....they obviously don't know what has never been logged into any reporting system. Flood cars continue to be a problem because NEW late model cars can be obtained for almost nothing and the profit margin for scumbags who resort to "Cleaning" them such they are Laundered to read clean title,low miles
one owner cream puff.



What you to do is comply with the legal requirements to register your vehicle in your home state. Contact your state's Dept of Motorvehicles. Provide complete documentation that shows proof of ownership, and shows that prior owner was a lega owner and supporting documents that said vehicle was last registered in 1973 by the prior owner, where he was a legal owner and resident of that other state. It is obvious that the old car became unroadworthy and was "parked" and that the registration lapsed and was never renewed......
Your State will tell you how you can proceed.
Nickshu's description of Major Rust Repair is one that is often routinely done where essentially you're keeping the Original REGISTERED RUSTY CAR's sections that include the needed VIN's and "replacing the holy rusted body metal as needed with that of a donor body that is nearly rust free.
DON'T TAMPER WITH THE VIN Tags or Rivets.........just cut a large enough section that you can then WELD The clean DONOR body on to.
My guess is that is how those with the PURCHASED NEW unibody complete shells do it for the AUSTIN-HEALEYS and '67 Mustang FASTBACKS. Presto, change-O and s swiss cheese stinker of OHIO RUSTOUT becomes as close to showroom super low miles car after the reassembly, restoration and paint.
Consult your states DMV for exactly what your options might be!

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: 19sixty5 ()
Date: March 05, 2018 10:33PM

Every state seems to have a different answer, just contact your DMV and ask, play it safe.

65 Crown Hardtop
65 GTO 4 speed Tri-Power Convert
67 Cutlass Supreme LS3/4L85e Convert
1970 El Camino SS 396 TH400
2006 GTO 6 speed
2014 Harley Davidson Electra Glide Ultra Limited

Huntsville, AL

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Re: Vin tag ethical question
Posted by: 67 airvair ()
Date: March 06, 2018 04:34AM

There is nothing that cannot be had, for a price. That includes the special rosette pop rivets and body tags. Just look in Hemmings.

As to the ethical issue, consider replacement panels. Like one writer in an antique magazine once said on the issue, could not the whole body be considered a "replacement" part? Indeed, when it comes down to it, panels can be cut out and welded in.

As a career diemaker, I am able to do things that not even an expert can tell was ever done, and that includes swapping VIN's, body tags, AND restamping secret serial numbers. And as far as I'am concerned, as long as you legally own both cars, no problem. No harm, no foul.

The problem is, rather, one of laws not taking into consideration the antique car owners' needs and problems, from selling and moving cars across borders to restoring valuable (for their complete/rust-free condition) antique and collector cars. Most laws consider only everyday vehicles and the theft thereof.

-Mark

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