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OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: BILLG ()
Date: January 02, 2018 05:11AM

Ok, I read Bob Helt's books and am now more confused that ever about what engine oil we should be using, by viscosity and brand. I never use the vair in real cold weather, not even rain. Live in northern OH just south of Cleveland. Need comments about oil use with our sliding lifters. Comments?

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Murphy ()
Date: January 02, 2018 05:15AM

You'll get MANY replies, all will have a different answer.

You'll get the scientific explanation.

You'll get the racer explanation.

Read the owners manual, the engineers knew what was needed for your car.

No rocket science involved here, although you may be led to believe it is.

65 Monza Coupe
61 500 Coupe (under Construction) Getting close.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2018 05:16AM by Murphy.

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: January 02, 2018 05:17AM

Use Shell Rotella T diesel OIL 10w-30. Get it from local Tractor Supply. When i get my engine built. It will be my break in oil. After 3k miles, I will shift to Brad Penn Synthetic 10W-30.

Read Richard1's big desertion on oils for or Vairs. He is the guru of oils since that is his job and expertise. I believe you will find a link in the FAQs.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: BILLG ()
Date: January 02, 2018 07:57AM

The engineers wrote the owners manual 50+ years ago. Think oils have changed?
I need info on today's oils on yesterday's car

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 02, 2018 08:02AM

Bill in our FAQ's Richard1 just published the latest list a few weeks ago.





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: January 02, 2018 08:03AM

Bill: this Richard1's link

[www.widman.biz]

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2018 08:04AM by Lane66m.

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: flamingchariots ()
Date: January 02, 2018 08:33AM

Bill, this is what richard1 posted recently:


Quote
richard1
Re: Oil specs
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: June 06, 2017 02:44PM

croderique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Richard, I went to buy oil at the local O'Reilly's
> and there is a new oil spec, CK-4 on the shelves.
> Shell's spec sheet says it is formulated for
> higher temperatures, higher sheer stability and
> oxidation stability and totally backward
> compatible. They also talk about a new FA-4 oil
> which may have "limited backward compatibility".
>
> [rotella.shell.com]
> =CjwKEAjwvMnJBRCO2NSu-Puc6AUSJAAf-OSUxlpaZHJGEFgNa
> WiT_o0Pnr9jr2Wub91sC6LFt8mymBoC0Krw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.
> ds
>
> Any comments on this new standard and how it will
> affect our Corvair engines?
> Thanks
> Chuck


For now I'm not a CK-4 fan, but it is getting better, especially since Ford said not to use it. Since then various companies have improved it. I expect that it will end up as other categories, where today a CJ-4 really has the advantages of the CI-4 for our engines, even with the lower ZDDP.

Even the SN oils are getting to where they might be recommendable.

But stay away from the FA-4 oils, as we do want the higher HTHS values of the original formulas.
[corvaircenter.com]


Also see: [corvaircenter.com]

Rotella formula was changed in the last year or so.

Also see this: [corvaircenter.com]

Kevin
Medina, OH

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Murphy ()
Date: January 02, 2018 02:21PM

BILLG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The engineers wrote the owners manual 50+ years
> ago. Think oils have changed?
> I need info on today's oils on yesterday's car

It only stands to reason todays oils work better today than oil being used 50+ years ago.

K.I.S.S.

I need to know what time it is, not how to build the clock.

65 Monza Coupe
61 500 Coupe (under Construction) Getting close.

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: January 05, 2018 06:23PM

Mobil 1 15W-50. Has sufficient amounts of zinc, can take the heat, and is readily available (if not cheap)

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: flamingchariots ()
Date: January 05, 2018 08:49PM

jamesolefjensen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mobil 1 15W-50. Has sufficient amounts of zinc,
> can take the heat, and is readily available (if
> not cheap)


I disagree. That oil is way too thick for normal driving.
Bill and I live in northern Ohio.

Best viscosity is 10w30 under normal conditions.

Kevin
Medina, OH

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 06, 2018 05:12AM

Murphy wrote <<<"I need to know what time it is, not how to build the clock.">>>

I think Richard is trying to get us to think on our own. From what I gather reading his paper, oil formulas are often changing and there could be different formulas under the same brand in different stores or regions. As an oil professional he can't recommend a certain brand and then have it change down the road.
The mainstream oils are sometimes changing to remain competitive in the marketplace rather than making the best oil posible.
Even within our group we have different factors in our decision. One thing I want is something that's readily available so the do-it-yourselfer can change their own oil and keep the oil the same. The hobbyist maintaining their own cars can buy special/better oil and keep it around.
I've been using Rotella T4 conventional but the recent revision to CK-4 has me a little nervous. I would not know to be looking at the labels without Richard's primer.
The Brad-Penn is probably the best, the old Kendall stuff I used to use in old Harleys.
Valvoline VR-1 is good but took a big price jump and got hard to find a few years ago, especially in 10/30.
Cenex has a classic car oil available through co-ops and such which is supposed to be good.
There are folks who swear by Amsoil. The theory that synthetic oil can get past seals easier has me leery but my fears are probably not valid.
One thing I changed in recent years was going back to 10/30 oil, I was a "thicker is better in an air cooled engine" guy for a long time. Maybe in a Harley with roller bearings but not in a Corvair with .0015 bearing clearance.
Just my opinions and I could be wrong.
Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: January 06, 2018 05:53AM

Yes, there are a lot of choices out there, and they are continually changing.
They will be changing much more in the next few years as more is learned from the trials going on to protect new engines with new, but varying technology, and taking the plunge to SAE 0W-8 viscosity without losing lubrication. It is very interesting to follow. It is interesting to see how the slight addition of Esters to the PAO can compensate for, or improve, a lot of the ZDDP, and then where extra ZDDP hurts.

But for now, the best thing we can do is remember that:
-- any currently certified oil is better than those of the 60's.
-- preferablhy look for CI-4, CJ-4 oils (I think most CK-4 oils will be up to snuff in a few months, and we may see a category of CK-4+ to show that - although that is a political hot potato)
-- keep the viscosity down to 10W-30 unless you are racing or driving in 100F+ heat.
-- be aware that some of the "classic car motor oils" are too high in ZDDP
-- Stay away from the Dollar Store when looking for oil.

Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: January 06, 2018 08:39AM

Richard - Thanks for the good summary.

As you said, things always change and folks have to be open to revising their knowledge, not easy too do!

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Murphy ()
Date: January 06, 2018 08:59AM

I appreciate Richards knowledge and input, but, we are talking Corvairs here, not a Lamborghini or a Maserati.

My comment of "not how to build the clock" was for the OP. There is no magic oil that will make your car run for a million miles.

This discussion could go on forever.

65 Monza Coupe
61 500 Coupe (under Construction) Getting close.

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: January 07, 2018 09:20AM

a simple way to tell time

Here is the straight story on selecting an oil for your Corvair.


If you believe that our Corvairs with the sliding valve lifters need more wear protection than the recent late model vehicles with their roller lifters do. And if you believe that the phophorus added by ZDDP provides this wear protection, then you do not want to use any new car oils rated in the top of the donut on the back of their containers with an SM, or SN, or GF-4 or GF-5.

Also, if you really desire to go to your favorite Auto parts store (FLAPS) to buy your oil and don’t wish to order your oil by mail or over the internet, Then this article is for you.

You should be aware that some mail or Internet ordered oils are custom tailored (specially formulated) for the “OLD CAR” market and will be exactly what your Corvair may need. But be aware too, that these may cost significantly more than the Flaps oil and take a while to get.

Synthetic oil does not provide any significant advantage over the petroleum oils.

You must determine the viscosity range of any oil you purchase. 10W-30 will meet almost any moderate climate’s temperatures. Sub freezing temperature would indicate a 5W-40 oil and extremely high summer temperatures would require a 15W-40 oil.

So what you do want is an oil of the proper viscosity range and one that has any of the following codes in the top portion of the donut on the back of the container: SJ, SL, CI-4 or CJ-4. The latter two codes are preferable. CK-4 oil is not yet approved for Corvair use so do not use any oil with this designation.

Now if you love puzzles and like challenges, then you might want to look for oil in containers that have NO starburst on the front but do have a donut on the back that has an SM or SM at the top but NO wording at the bottom of the donut that says “Resource Conserving”. These oils will be racing oils or high mileage oils. Or something similar. If you find such an oil it may work for your Corvair if it is the right viscosity range.


Bob Helt

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 07, 2018 09:40AM

supplied by Bob Helt a few years ago!







MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Date: January 07, 2018 09:52AM

Bob Says: "Synthetic oil does not provide any significant advantage over the petroleum oils"

Dan Disagrees:
from this source: www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a12007368/what-makes-synthetic-oil-better

"The majority of motor oils can be divided up into five different groups. An oil’s group number is dependent on the base oil properties used to derive it. Group I and II oils are created using petroleum base oils, and are considered conventional oil. Group III, IV, and V are considered synthetic, even though group III oils are also derived from a petroleum base oil. Regardless of the derivation, group III through V oils have superior properties and have undergone additional chemical processes which make them differ greatly in quality from groups I & II oils. The group rating alone is not sufficient information to determine if one oil is superior to another; each group has individual advantages and disadvantages.

Speaking more generally of synthetic oils as a whole, versus conventional oils, there are legitimately impressive differences between the two. Consider the creation process of a conventional 5W-30 motor oil. The petroleum base oil alone may have the properties of an SAE 5 grade oil. This means at extremely low temperatures, it may be thick, and at high temperatures, it’s fairly thin. To change this, oil companies incorporate additives into the mix, changing the properties. Pour point depressants can reduce the viscosity at low temperatures, and viscosity index improvers can thicken the oil at high temperatures. The resulting stew of chemicals yields a 5W-30 motor oil, common within the industry. When it’s brand new, a 5W-30 conventional motor oil acts exactly like a 5W-30 synthetic motor oil.

Over time, however, the chemical additives used in the conventional oil to alter its properties begin to break-down, vaporize, or get used up. This means that the oil starts to return back to it’s original base oil, from a 5W-30 back to a straight grade 5 oil for our example. As contaminants begin to work their way into the oil, the overall trend over a long duration is that the oil thickens across the entire spectrum. An old and used conventional 5W-30 oil behave very differently than a brand new 5W-30.

Synthetic oils work quite differently. From the start, the chemical structure is designed to match a specific multi-grade oil. That means even without additives, you could have a 5W-30 motor oil, and then certain additives like rust-inhibitors or dispersants will be added to further improve the usefulness of the oil. The result is that over time the synthetic oil does not degrade away back to a less desirable oil as conventional ones do. From a viscosity standpoint, an old 5W-30 synthetic will act pretty similar to a new 5W-30 synthetic, although likely it will be slightly thicker as a result of contaminants.

Why does all this matter? When engineers design the engine, they’re looking to achieve a certain oil flow rate throughout the system, dependent on the temperature of the engine and the speed at which it’s rotating. As oils age, their flow characteristics change, and this changes how well your engine is protected from wear when it operates outside the boundaries of its initial design. While it’s true that from a viscosity standpoint alone, you could match the protection of a synthetic oil simply by changing your conventional oil regularly, often times synthetic oils come with superior quality additives, leading to a cleaner, smoother running engine as well. There’s a reason why most automotive manufacturers have switched over to synthetics directly from the factory.


Dan Davis ~ Pierce County, WA ~ CORSA Western Director + Corvairs NW + North Cascades Corvairs + Corvanatics
1966 Corsa Turbo coupe ~ ~ 1966 140 Corsa ~ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 'Vert Sierra Tan/Fawn ~ 1964 Monza 'Vert (SOLD) ~ 1960 Monza Ermine White/Red PG ++ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 Evening Orchid w/ ivory/black interior ~ 1962 Monza Wagon 102/4 ~ 1963 Rampside/Scamper ~ 1963 Red/Greenbrier ~ 1969 Ultra Van #468

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: January 07, 2018 04:39PM

Hey Dan,
While most of what you just posted is true to some extent (e.g., 5w-30 oil returning to 5w in use, isn't correct. Why would there be a thickening spec then?.) What you show are just "On paper" IMPROVEMENTS, not significant advantages.

For some significant advantages, how about gas mileage improvements using synth? Very likely to be negligable. Show me the data on mileage improvement advantage for Corvairs. Or how about engine life improvements? Show me the data for an advantage of added engine life with synth. Yes, the synths offer a longer drain interval, but since the synths cost more than the petroleum oils there is pretty much a trade-off here. Longer drain intervals = higher cost when drained and refilled.

Still no significant advantages to synth over petroleum oils.

Bob Helt

Re: OIL FOR OUR VAIRS
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: January 08, 2018 06:21AM

Trying not to confuse people, Both Bob and Dan have good points.

The article is very correct except that it exaggerates the breakdown process. The example of the 5W-30 mineral oil must hold within the specs during the tests, which are designed to be representative. This is done by choosing a mid point in the spec and using the VI improvers that will break down at the rate the oxidation would thicken the oil.... In that specific test.

In reality, what I see in oil analysis is that most mineral oils that are group II or better will maintain that range, but the cheaper ones will lose viscosity in 2000 miles or so, but then oxidize into the normal range if you continue to 5000 miles. Group II oils will make it through the 5000 miles, maybe thickening after that. Synthetics will continue on to 10,000 miles or more without viscosity issues unless they become contaminated with high soot.

Where synthetics can be beneficial in a Corvair, in my opinion, is for turbos (I never like to see mineral oil in any turbo), and where the engine will sit for significant periods of time without use, as the mineral oil will have aromatics that harbor corrosive molecules and can damage bearings while sitting in your garage.

I do not use synthetic in my Vair at the moment because the only air filter I've found for the 60 is the K&N type (oiled) that is garbage (documented by oil analysis). I change my oil due to dirt contamination, not oil degradation. Anyone with a K&N type filter should be very careful about extending oil change intervals. One of these days I'm going to make a paper element to fit.

Where Bob and I disagree on the selection is that I start with the specifications and don't choose the brand until the end, when I have compared all of the 10W-30's on the shelf... And I would never consider a 15W-40, but have used 5W-40 synthetic when I expected to be driving in 110ºF+ weather.



Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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