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V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Johnsona0620 ()
Date: December 14, 2017 01:19PM

Hello I am new to corvairs. I actually fell in love with the cars when I found out about chuck rust's crown corvair and the Yenko stingers history. I'd like advice on deciding on a engine platform to build into a hill climb/Road course race car that can still be driven on the streets for long periods of time if I wanted to drive to a meet or track day. I am 26 years old and most of my buddies into cars have never heard of corvairs or just don't like them because they didn't come with a V8. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'd like the car to be as good/fast/reliable as pikes peaks vintage class competitive cars. So far I've purchased Performance corvairs: How to hotrod the corvair engine and chassis. I'd also like to know the most cost effective engine platform to reach my goals.

Thanks for reading guys

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: thewolfe ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:03PM

LSx is probably the most cost effective v8 platform for any car. Tons of aftermarket parts and the motors are relatively cheap and robust. Only problem is getting one in a corvair. If you're good at fabrication then this is not an issue as there are no swap kits for corvairs. Everything has to be fabricated. The easy way is to find a crown car that has all the parts. Won't be as much fun as an LS though.

Nate Wolfe
Portland OR
65 Corsa 180

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Date: December 14, 2017 02:15PM

Here's some "thought food" for your consideration:

Doug Roe & his Corvair Powered Racer from the 1960s

Maybe just me, but I Love the idea of the Corvair beating up on all the V8 stuff...


Dan Davis ~ Pierce County, WA ~ CORSA Western Director + Corvairs NW + North Cascades Corvairs + Corvanatics
1966 Corsa Turbo coupe ~ ~ 1966 140 Corsa ~ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 'Vert Sierra Tan/Fawn ~ 1964 Monza 'Vert (SOLD) ~ 1960 Monza Ermine White/Red PG ++ ~ 1965 Monza 140/4 Evening Orchid w/ ivory/black interior ~ 1962 Monza Wagon 102/4 ~ 1963 Rampside/Scamper ~ 1963 Red/Greenbrier ~ 1969 Ultra Van #468

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: thewolfe ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:27PM

13.5 second 1/4 mile is pretty slow by todays standards

Nate Wolfe
Portland OR
65 Corsa 180

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:29PM

Wow are you in for a lot of varied opinions.
Here's mine: The rear engine Corvair is very competitive when modified to output some decent power and cost quite a few dollars in the process to make that happen.
A front engine conversion such as using a G-body frame will perform exactly like a G-body, not a bad thing but not special.
A mid-engine conversion will give the best performance by far and has a lot of variables too. The engine is in the car with you, hot and not much room, using the old Crown conversion is popular and if you can get the parts the engineering has been done but the Corvair transaxle doesn't handle the power well so it'll break easy. There are other transaxles that have been used but you're on your own for engineering.
What I think would be the most bang for the buck is taking the power plant from a sporty FWD and mounting it mid to rear in the vair.
What I want is G-body with 500 HP LS.
I love your drawing, I want that look.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:38PM

Welcome to the CCF!



I'm way different than most...

Nitrous* on a 3 litre 140hp based engine... there when you want it only!

Actually what ALL track racers seem to want... but rules don't allow in most classes is more gears.... so a transaxle swap is in order... but lots of work and $$$

* remember all Vair engines are basically 80 hp at 4000 rpm..... so figure max 40 hp shot... most likely Wet..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2017 02:42PM by MattNall.

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: December 14, 2017 04:39PM

Welcome to the forum. Your mention of Pikes Peak Hill Climb vintage class makes me ask if you are in Denver or C/Springs area?

Good luck in sorting through all of the opinions everyone will offer too. In fact I am surprised that more comments are not posted.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: bruces ()
Date: December 14, 2017 04:58PM

LS chev in the back, attached to a Porsche G50 transaxle is the Least expensive way to make 400+reliable HP. There’s few members here that have built this combo.
You could get 300+hp from a Vair motor with EFI, a modern turbo, intercooler, water injection, big bore kit, built heads, etc.... then you still have to do a 4spider conversion on the pinion, and beef up th diff. Hopefully the trans doesn’t let go. And It still won’t be as quick, or reliable as the V8.
That said, I went this way(turbo EFI big bore, etc...)

Bruce S
'68 Monza Coupe
140 Turbo EFI
White Rock, BC

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Mike Stillwell ()
Date: December 14, 2017 05:40PM

You're going about this all wrong. You don't build the car and fit it to a class. You pick a class and build the car to fit it.

Mike
YS-117

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: December 14, 2017 05:54PM

There was a chassis for sale a while ago. Down in Texas, I believe. It was a full tube frame, set to fit underneath a late model steel body. It came with a full adjustable front suspension - Racing, not stock Corvair. It had the capability of mounting a full mid-engine and transaxle, and fully independent rear. Mike Levine has showed the road course capability of a full size Corvair body with V8 underpinnings. With the latest advent of mid-engined performance cars, appropriate transaxles will become available. I saw two different transaxles at the latest PRI show last week. One was the Transaxle from the Lamborghini, the other, a specific 6-speed with sequential shifting. The sequential box costs twice what the Lambo box cost. Both had adapters to LS motors and a full choice of gear ratios and diff ratios. Both were more than a used G50 Transaxle, the Lambo was less than a new G50. There is an old Hot Rodders motto. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 14, 2017 06:14PM

Mike Stillwell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're going about this all wrong. You don't build
> the car and fit it to a class. You pick a class
> and build the car to fit it.
>
> Mike
> YS-117

There's some truth to that. You have to decide what you want to do. Classic car thing or a competitive newer car.

I like the modern stuff, but I also like the Crown V8 with all it's short comings. I rode with Chuck Rust a few times and it's a thrill, but the "tactile" input is tremendous - an hour at a time is about my limit in it. Nothing like a SBC hitting 7,000 RPM just behind you (yes I've observed that). Chuck has broken the transaxle a few times, but he looks at it as the cost of having fun.

The modern LSX engine and a Porche transaxle is good way to go if you are starting from scratch, but $$$$$$$$. A few have used the Corvette items.
However what type/class would such cars be legal in?

For less time and dollars you could do a vintage race Corvair and while it's not up to modern car standards, they are fun to drive.

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Johnsona0620 ()
Date: December 14, 2017 11:31PM

Hey guys,

I am located in Baltimore MD. Hillclimb racing has always been the dream with one day competing in pikes peak vintage class. At this time I am only considering a built naturally aspirated 140 motor with efi or a naturally aspirated v8 midmounted with efi. I’ve been leaning more towards a v8 from some opinions and reasearch but I love the idea of a corvair with a flat 6 taking down v8s too. When pikes peak has the vintage class compete on the mountain an LSX motor would be against the rules. Thank you guys for the advice and the warm welcome. Please keep the info flowing. I believe the last winner in the class was a 71 cuda with 500 hp. I like to believe a light Corvair with 300-350whp ish sorted out could be as fast maybe???

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: texas yenko dude ()
Date: December 15, 2017 04:54AM

If you would like to go the V8 direction, and don't want to shell out 50k+ to build a car from scratch the right way, call Mike Levine and buy his V8 car that's been for sale. Plenty fast and sorted and will deliver you tons of fun and bang for the buck !!

Going the Corvair direction, you can get right at 190-200hp at the crank that is semi reliable. It will all depend on how much you care to spend on the build to make it real reliable. Then it gets down to you keeping it below 6500. A 2000-2200# corvair tub with 200-225 crank hp is a real hoot to drive and race.

Texas YENKO Dude
YS-070
YS-199
YS-320
Southeast of Disorder


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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: December 15, 2017 07:25AM

As has been suggested above do some homework before you start building the car.

Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing (RMVR) is the group here and the 'vintage' at the hill climb. Google 'rocky mountain vintage racing' and carefully read the rules and eligibility requirements. The safety rules are of particular note in regard to cage/fuel cell/fire suppression. Read closely the eligilbility rules too, those help determine what paperwork/logbooks/history is needed for a particular car.

Also if you plan running events in Md you will probably need to meet your local club rules plus SCCA and whatever vintage group is in your area.

Good luck with your vision, another Corvair on the track/street is always good.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: December 15, 2017 09:16AM

About the strongest transaxle you can get and under $5000 !

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: December 15, 2017 12:07PM

So, Mike, Is that the Jericho against the C5 diff? DO you shift with cables from the driver's area. Which actual shifter? Hurst?

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: firevair66 ()
Date: December 15, 2017 01:08PM

My mid engine is tons of fun and wicked fast.

John Shoemaker,Riegelsville,PA.
1958 Impala Sport Cp. 348 ,pg/ac
61 Rampside full custom show truck
65 Monza 110/4 vert driver
65 Full Custom Monza 140 Cp
66 Monza 110/PG Vert
66 Corsa FITCH SPRINT Documented ( in Process,recondition)
66 CorV8 350 "firevair"Custom Show




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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Jim Stukenborg ()
Date: December 15, 2017 01:59PM

I like the sketch of the Corvair with the front air intake, air dam, and the wide flares. As far as engines go, I listened to an unmuffled turbo Corvair six with a 4 barrel carb run the other day. It sounded really strong. The racing Corvairs get their weight down to around 2000 lbs. Could not do that with a V8. I also watched a racing Corvair with a normally aspirated Corvair engine lay down 30 feet of black marks taking off. I was impressed by that. Jim

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: Johnsona0620 ()
Date: December 15, 2017 02:20PM

Pennsylvania Hillclimb Association classes info below. Basically either a V8 or flat 6 could be done but it looks like historic vintage won’t be my class because I want efi with either build. Super production street mod and special are interesting classes. I guess the question is now where is a Corvair competitive amongst modern cars transmission and transaxle limitation?

Production

Series produced cars, which are allowed a range of performance modifications while retaining their original design, structure and drive layout. There is no age limit, such as Showroom Stock, so Production includes many cars as old as 50 years and as new as current body styles. The three performance potential based classes include: E Production (EP), F Production (FP) and H Production (HP).

EP is the fastest of the Production classes with HP running the slowest in the category. Several cars in the Production classes can be run in more than one class, just by changing the engine between races. The ease of engine changes allows many Production drivers to enter more than one class at the Runoffs each year. Cars included in Production classes come from a diverse group ranging from the MG Midget, Turner, Fiat X1/9, Alfa Romeo Spyder, Austin Healey Sprite, and Lotus Super 7 to the BMW 325, Mazda Miata, RX-7, Nissan 240, Honda Civic, Suzuki Swift GTI and Toyota MR-2.

Super Production (SPU, SPO)

Cars running Super Production according to the GCR Specifications shall be separated according to the following
displacements:
SPU–normally aspirated cars of displacement 2999 cc or under, and forced-induction cars 1999cc and under
SPO–normally aspirated cars displacing 3000cc or over, and forced-induction cars 2000cc and over
All rotary engined cars will apply a 1.5 displacement multiplier when determining class.

Street Mod, Super Street Mod, & Street Mod Front Wheel Drive

Street Mod classes allows for radical things all the way up to engine swaps (within the same manufacturer). Keep in mind that these are “street” cars, so lights and interior are required (to varying degrees). Street Mod (SM) includes all sedans, coupes, and pickup trucks. Super Street Mod (SSM) accommodates 2 seater cars, SM sedans/coupes that do not meet weight restrictions, and other exclusions listed specifically in the SCCA Solo Rules. Street Mod Front Wheel Drive (SMF) was created to separate rear wheel and front wheel drive cars since the performance of these designs varies dramatically.

Vintage and Historic

Have an old race car that is running just as it did in the old days? Vintage or Historic may be a place for you to run. Again, cars are divided up by year, car configuration (sedan or formula), and displacement. These cars will have to meet minimum safety requirements to make timed runs, but it’s a great place to relive some of the old glory days.

Cars shall be prepared to and in possession of the SCCA Vintage Rules. A vintage or historic car will not be able to
compete at full competition speed unless it conforms to the current safety/roll bar rules specific in the current GCR, TTR. If a car does not conform to these specifications, it may be allowed to take exhibition runs at the posted road speed limit with no time posted. No exhibition runs will be allowed at track events. In Historic 1, 2 and 4 carburetors and intake manifolds, valve rockers and brakes are free. Transmissions are free as long as they have the same number of forward gears. Rear tube shocks can replace lever shocks. Fender flares composed of steel, fiberglass or aluminum are allowed. No racing slicks are allowed in any of these classes.
Vintage 1 (V1)–1950-1962 Sports Cars and Sedans 2000cc and under
Vintage 2 (V2)–1950-1962 Sports Cars and Sedans Over 2000cc

Vintage 3 (V3)–1950-Pre 1967 Sports Racing and Formula Cars
Historic 1 (H1)–1963-Pre 1973 Sports Cars and Sedans 1301cc to 2000cc
Historic 2 (H2)–1963-Pre 1973 Sports Cars and Sedans Over 2000cc
Historic 3 (H3)–1967-Pre 1973 Sports Racing, FIA, Can-Am and 1967-Pre1973 Formula Car, All Formula 5000
Historic 4 (H4)–1963-Pre 1973 Sports Cars and Sedans 1300cc and under

Special

These are our catch-all classes. Three classes divide cars by displacement. Essentially there are two kinds of cars in Special: those that are built just to set hillclimb records, and those that people want to run but they just don’t fit into any class. You might see anything in Special, from a Ford Torino dirt-track car (complete with top-fuel style wing) to a mini-formula car with a 3-cylinder 2-stroke engine and a variable belt drive. These cars must meet the safety requirements outlined in the Time Trial Rules, have operating suspension on all wheels, open or closed wheel design, and the chassis must be equally distributed along the center line of the vehicle.

Classed by engine displacement (multiplication factor of 1.5 shall be used for forced induction)
S1–0 to 1650cc
S2–1651 to 3500cc
S3–3501cc to 500 cubic in



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2017 02:28PM by Johnsona0620.

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Re: V8 or flat 6 for a Hill Climb/Road Course build?
Posted by: jmaechtlen ()
Date: December 17, 2017 10:18PM

I went with the GM 3.8 fwd package, midships.
Stout motor, will handle lots of turbo abuse.
Trouble is, tough to use anything but GM's 4-speed transaxle, and it doesn't like more than 300 hp without lots of beefing. Starts costing $$$.

GM's later 6-speed automatic seems to handle more power, but the ecu/brain may not be as conducive to handling massive turbo upgrades.

Not many powerful fwd cars come with stick shifts, harder to find good combos there.

fwiw
jay

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