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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: December 14, 2017 05:11PM

martyscarr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mel Francis used an electric motor to drive the
> fan in his Monza SS clone. I don't know how well
> it worked out for him.


Mel’s car also has a sealed fresh cooling air inlet running to the front of the car, which will help at cruising speeds, plus there is no recirculating of hot air into the system.

I have no idea if he’s still using it, but I’ve seen the car up close and it is very impressive.

Rocco

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: tkalp ()
Date: December 14, 2017 05:30PM

Talked to Mel Francis during the 2012 Performance Workshop and he said at that time he was replacing the electric fan with a stock configuration.

T. Kalp
Wichita, KS

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: December 14, 2017 07:04PM

azdave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gnvair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How about an electric fan attached to the stock
> > fan?
>
> A friend installed this e-fan setup in his Corsa
> 180. He seriously overheated the engine a few
> month ago and is now back to running the stock
> system.


Hey Dave, I do not want to go too far off topic here, but am truly curious as to what is with the green oxygen bottle connected to the oil filler cap?

.
-----------------------------------------------
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: DAVECS1 ()
Date: December 15, 2017 04:50AM

I am not sure I understand the fascination with the electric fans. Electric fans work well on water pumpers due to an entirely different duty cycle on the engine heating. When the car is moving 20+ mph there is a considerable amoint of air being forced through the grill and cooling system, of course as you go faster this gets even better. So when the car is at wot really moving, there is an abundance of air cooling, The electric fans dont even need to be on. When a water pump stops moving, that is when the fans need to be on, generating air flow. Electric fans are great generating high speed air flow when the engine is at idle.

For a stock corvair there is no forced air from vehicle movement. That forced air comes from the stock fan. That fan needs to generate more cooling the higher the duty cycle on the engine climbs. Which is almost completely opposite of the water pumper.

The only advantage I see to an electric fan on the corvair is to eliminate belt issues, but it would seem to me the simpler engineering problem to solve is keeping the belt on better.

1964 Monza Convertible
110 4 speed
Peoria, IL




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2017 04:52AM by DAVECS1.

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: December 15, 2017 05:50AM

American Mel Wrote:
----------------------------------------------
> I do not want to go too far off topic
> here, but am truly curious as to what is with the
> green oxygen bottle connected to the oil filler
> cap?

I never asked him but I think we can safely assume it is a homemade catch-can device.


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 4dr 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4dr EJ20T w/5-speed
66 500 4dr 110 3-speed Display Vehicle




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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: December 15, 2017 08:56AM

The main problem with using an electric fan is the amount of CURRENT needed to make the electric motor spin fast enough to generate the pressure needed to cool the engine!

In a DC system power equals Voltage Times Current! The voltage is 'fixed' at 12 Volts so the more power required the more current has to be drawn.

The standard Corvair generator or alternator cannot provide the necessary current.

This has been covered in some of the older electric fan research.

Power is not free, so even if we could put on a 'bigger' alternator to supply more current it pulls "power" (HP) from the engine so we really don't gain much.

I started driving Corvairs in 1962 and have never had a real 'fan problem' so I don't see the need to try something different.

YMMV!

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: December 15, 2017 10:24PM

Another thing to consider is the amount of power that is really required to
properly cool the engine. Assume you are okay with only 1500 cfm. when the heads are cold, this is 10" of pressure (on an early turbo). When the heads get
to 300 degrees, the pressure is then somewhere between 6" and 8" at 1500 cfm.
The air horsepower at 6" is 1.42 hp... a LOT more horsepower than any e-fan motors can actually put out in steady state. So, take the lower shrouds off,
this gets you down to about 4" at 1500 cfm with the heads at 300 degrees.
Now the air horsepower is only .95hp... but you're not done yet, because you have to figure in the fan efficiency. Assuming you have a fan that is 75% efficient at a 4" restriction at 1500 cfm, factoring in a "mythical" 75% efficient fan, now your motor needs to be okay with 1.26 hp steady state, and
if you use a mag fan, which is only 28-29% efficient, your motor needs just jumped to 3.3 hp. That motor has got to be HUGE!!! and it is even worse than that, once you figure in the indirect power path- belt to alternator (95% efficient), alternator to motor 65% efficient and motor to fan assuming direct
drive 85%.... .95x.65X.85= .52 meaning you lost half of your power from the engine to the fan because of the various transmission losses, so your total power used to drive that humongous 3.3hp electric motor is going to be something like 6.3 hp, and you don't have any power left over to run the engine or keep the battery charged, so add more. Anyone that claims they got their e-fan to work, they are getting by with a heck of a lot less cooling than they will admit to, or they have a large tank of water/methanol hiding in the trunk, or both.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: December 16, 2017 07:51AM

I was trying to explain some of that with alternator and motor efficiency. For those of us that have a 3hp to 5hp 3450 RPM motor on our garage compressors, take a look at them. They would bairly cover the cooling needs with a stock fan.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2017 08:28AM by MattNall.

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: December 16, 2017 09:31AM

Just a question here. Could a race car set up a forced air system, taking air from the front of the car, through ducts, to the cooling fan intake. Force more pressurized air through the fan area. Then use a clutch on the fan so it does not have to work hard (and draw power) at higher RPM's and the forced airflow does the cooling? Crazy idea and probably not worth the effort.

I have seen this type of system to feed the carb's or turbo intake with pressurized, cool air. I think that bump's a Corvair up a class so probably not worth the change of class. I do like the idea of finding a way to use the air that gets slammed at the front of the car to feed to the engine, or at least get it to flow to the rear of the car.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 16, 2017 09:58AM

Warren LeVeque has done this with a standard belt / fan...worked great... but kept throwing belts. And he tried to remedy that.





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: December 16, 2017 09:59AM

BobV66Vair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a question here. Could a race car set up a
> forced air system, taking air from the front of
> the car, through ducts, to the cooling fan intake.
> Force more pressurized air through the fan area.
> Then use a clutch on the fan so it does not have
> to work hard (and draw power) at higher RPM's and
> the forced airflow does the cooling? Crazy idea
> and probably not worth the effort.

Craig replies: Warren LeVeque installed a pure ram-air cooling system on his race car (open roadster light weight, not a full-body car). As I recall, it overcooled on the track but presented issues when not actually racing.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: December 16, 2017 10:53AM

Doug Hargrove built a air-flow system with a big honking duct through the car. fed from all four headlight openings. He had a complex way of explaining to the SCCA tech guys why it was legal.(In the 70s) Matching cross-sections, etc. While running at speed, it provided almost enough cooling, warm up laps and cool down laps were both "overheat" laps. He had to be very careful unless at speed. He may have run a tiny fan to help it, I don't remember exactly. I think he mounted a belt driven vertical fan in the front of the engine on a long shaft (under the rear window) to pull air through. Doug was (is) very inventive!

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Date: December 16, 2017 01:29PM

According to conservation of energy principles 14 hp is 14hp.

What these people are really trying to do is create 14hp with less energy. Let me know how that works out.

Also what good is a cooling system that works 99.9999% of all situations?

Answer - the .0001%

Lon Wall

Fireman Sumpter Valley Railroad #3 and #19
svry.com
www.pacificmodelloggerscongress.com

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: December 16, 2017 03:36PM

Lon,
I would guess that people attempting to drive the stock fan with an electric motor must think the stock cooling is overkill (somewhat wrong) and can be driven much slower and still cool (wrong again) or they I just don't understand physics (likely). Clearly at higher RPM the stock fan is too much since the racers get away with cutting it down.

Has anyone tried to rig up a variable drive that slows the fan at higher RPM? If you had a variable crank and fan pulley it would slow the alternator at higher RPM also for even better results.

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: December 16, 2017 03:51PM

No one really likes mule drive fan set up. No other car throws fan belts like a Corvair. Now, most lates don't have the issue due to mag fan but most earlies do and it is no fun. It is my biggest complaint about the car's design after the "fumes".
CA Rose

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Date: December 16, 2017 04:16PM

Craw - Looks like you need a Robson spring loaded idler - I still have some.

Lon Wall

Fireman Sumpter Valley Railroad #3 and #19
svry.com
www.pacificmodelloggerscongress.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2017 04:17PM by MattNall.

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: December 16, 2017 05:02PM

With good bearings, proper alignment and tension a stock engine won't throw belts. I've only had one early that had a belt problem and I routinely run them till they quit making power before I shift. I used the Clark's wrapped belt.
If you have a stock engine and belt issues you have something wrong.
Lon's tensioners are excellent also. I've got one on my fuel injected engine and have never had a belt come off.

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: December 16, 2017 09:57PM

Yes, the wrapped belts are best. All bearings need to be tip top and the pulleys free of corrosion. The Robson idler has some difficulty with a loping engine, Lon. Don't you recall selling one ten years ago? Anyway, it's a great product for many people so I won't comment further.

When everything is fine and you think life is great, a fan belt has an untimely demise. Its bad luck that other cars never seem to have...

A serpentine belt would be awesome.

Crawford

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: December 17, 2017 04:24AM

caroseiii Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, the wrapped belts are best. All bearings
> need to be tip top and the pulleys free of
> corrosion. The Robson idler has some difficulty
> with a loping engine, Lon. Don't you recall
> selling one ten years ago? Anyway, it's a great
> product for many people so I won't comment
> further.
> snip
> Crawford
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I use the Robson tensioner exclusively on the race car, it really doesn't idle smoothly! There are a couple of things I have learned with using it. You cannot use an aluminum alternator pulley and do a quick high rpm shift. The belt will come off! The problem was cured when I went back to a steel pulley on the alt.
Any wobbly pulley will help throw a belt. I check ALL pulleys on the race car for running true. If I see any movement in the pulley it doesn't get used. Keep in mind "race car", street cars can generally tolerate a little movement of the pulleys.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Electric Fan, AGAIN
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: December 17, 2017 08:33AM

Simple math reveals why the electric won't work. 1 HP = 746 Watts. 14 HP = 10444 watts. Power (Watts) = Voltage X Amps, therefore Amps = P/V. 10444W/12V = 870 Amps. If you assume 13.5 volts when running, you still need 774 Amps. And that current value doesn't take any losses into account. A motor driving a stock fan just isn't going to happen.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Oklahoma City, OK

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