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Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: viewmaster ()
Date: December 13, 2017 11:32AM

Specifically: Those who run a condenser in the "Frunk". How does your system perform, and how are the lines run, back to engine compartment??

Pics if possible, please. Thanks in advance...

-m



Mike
'65 '500' Sedan 110 PG
'65 Monza Sedan turbo'd 110 SU conversion
Fresno, CA

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: curt ()
Date: December 13, 2017 12:23PM

Frunk = Front ?

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 13, 2017 12:25PM

Frunk = Trunk in front... rear engine cars..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: viewmaster ()
Date: December 13, 2017 02:33PM

I am looking into a full custom AC setup, with the Cond. and fans up front. Just want to get opinions and actual working experience with such a system. Also, how folks run their hoses, and if running length is an issue with performance.

-m



Mike
'65 '500' Sedan 110 PG
'65 Monza Sedan turbo'd 110 SU conversion
Fresno, CA

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: 67 airvair ()
Date: December 13, 2017 04:20PM

If you want wiring diagrams of how to put protective relays in the system, I have several diagrams I could email to you. They are proven systems that I have put in several customer cars, and am putting in my own project car. The system I am installing in it is a 4 relay system with trunk mounted fans and condenser and a high pressure cutoff safety switch included. I can also build the harnesses for you.

As yet, my project car is being delayed by the body shop. So I don't have any performance record to go by. Just construction pictures and plans.

-Mark (Air 'Vair Group prez)

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: December 13, 2017 05:03PM

My car's condenser is up front.

HP line to condenser input runs between the tank and right frame rail (stays under car all the way to condenser).

Condenser outlet runs through in-trunk dryer to the trunk firewall.

Under the cabin, both run along the inside of the rocker pinch weld up and over the right axle to the engine firewall.

Performance is unaffected by line length; all that's caused by additional line length is the need for additional refrigerant.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2017 05:05PM by cnicol.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 13, 2017 05:26PM

If your going to go with a custom set-up I suggest using the Eaton Aeroquip E Z clip system. Vintage air carries some parts, but I got great service (and better selection) of parts from the Hose Warehouse - [hosewarehouse.com]

You install the "O" ring fittings and run the hose and cut and clamp in the car.

Gates Polarguard is similar, but finding individual parts is near impossible as Gates wants you to buy the whole expensive setup, basically for installers.

You'll probably use the Sanden compressor - the old five cylinder has had random issues with "growling" at certain RPM (not just a Corvair issue) and now folks are using the seven piston compressor.

With R134a you can do a "rough" refrigerant weight calculation, but when charging a system you have to go by the formulas to balance HI vs LO and monitor evaporator temperature. If you just "load up" the system based on a refrigerant weight calculation you may find the performance very disappointing. Set up correctly R134a cools as well as the old R12.

Keep in mind you need a condenser that will lay flat AND WORK if you put it in the bottom of the frunk (front trunk).

Good luck, a lot to learn, but when done it's rewarding.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: viewmaster ()
Date: December 13, 2017 11:00PM

Thank You, Mark, Craig, and 66vairman. That answers a bit of questions in my head. Designing system now, and will have condenser in front, and evaporator in package tray area. Mark, diagrams and pics of build would be much appreciated and very helpful. PM for email... Craig, Nice pics and good looking runs. I can only hope to make that clean. 66vairman, Thanks for the link and parts supplier suggestions. I live in a hot summer environment in Commiefornia, so rewards will be needed. Condenser will be positioned in a more traditional, upright fashion.

I appreciate everyones help.

-m



Mike
'65 '500' Sedan 110 PG
'65 Monza Sedan turbo'd 110 SU conversion
Fresno, CA

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: rnch ()
Date: December 14, 2017 08:15AM

Does the (front) trunk mounted condenser give any better A/C performance (colder vent air temperature) than the engine compartment mounted condenser?

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 14, 2017 08:49AM

rnch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the (front) trunk mounted condenser give any
> better A/C performance (colder vent air
> temperature) than the engine compartment mounted
> condenser?

That's a "depends" question. With R134a and the proper expansion valve with the factory evaporator the condenser is the critical component. The old R12 condenser is thought to route the gas through too quickly to allow R134a to give up heat efficiently. Clark's sells a rear bulkhead mounted condenser that is a parallel/serial design that is claimed to work better with R134a. In my opinion and, 67 airvair's, the engine fan at idle does not pull enough CFM through the condenser and electric fans are needed to help.

Just my subjective appraisal, but the rear bulkhead R134a condenser with fans works adequately with the factory evaportor and fan.

If you want more cooling (and in your area that's understandable) you'd probably want to go to a big frunk condensor and a bigger evaporator unit with a bigger blower.

A/C is just a heat exhanger - the size of the evaporator, condenser, and compressor have to be matched. Making just one bigger doesn't mean more cooling.

BTW - I installed a thermal barrier in the roof of my four door while re-doing the headliner and it reduced the heat entering the car considerably. Less heat coming in means less cooling is needed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2017 08:52AM by 66vairman.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: December 14, 2017 09:47AM

I run propane (ES-12A) with a 66-style condenser, no additional fans, no idle-up solenoid and use the OEM Frigidaire compressor. My wife is happy to take that car out in the Phoenix summer heat to local cruises. We did a 500 mile weekend road trip up past Flagstaff one May (ambient temps near 100 in the valley) and it did just fine through the mountains with A/C on.

No, it doesn't outperform the A/C in a modern car and yes the air vent temps go up if you sit idling in traffic but I have no big yearning to cut out the trunk bottom and add a condenser (unless it's to add a radiator for another water-pumper engine swap). smiling smiley


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 4dr 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4dr EJ20T w/5-speed
66 500 4dr 110 3-speed Display Vehicle




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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: viewmaster ()
Date: December 14, 2017 11:42AM

Anyone ever use the "Freeze" r12??? i got a whole large container of the stuff. Was gonna use it, cuz it is what i got.

-m



Mike
'65 '500' Sedan 110 PG
'65 Monza Sedan turbo'd 110 SU conversion
Fresno, CA

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 14, 2017 11:45AM

Sure!! as I recall it it's propane based!! ggg really





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:01PM

Freeze 12 is not a hydrocarbon (propane-based) product. If I remember correctly it is a blend of R134 and R142. I think they added a small percentage of 142 to 134 so it would better carry the original R12 mineral oil throughout the system, thus creating a true "drop-in" product when R12 was banned. I've never used it myself.

I have a relative who is living very comfotably due to blending and patenting several alternative refrigerants.


Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 140 4-speed
65 Corsa 140 4-speed
66 Corsa 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 455 Toronado V8
65 Monza 4dr 140 PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4dr EJ20T w/5-speed
66 500 4dr 110 3-speed Display Vehicle




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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: December 14, 2017 02:55PM

66vairman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rnch Wrote:

> In my opinion
> and, 67 airvair's, the engine fan at idle does not
> pull enough CFM through the condenser and electric
> fans are needed

This is different than the discussion Mark and I had about my system, which will be using stock parts except the compressor. Or maybe I misunderstood, or he was referring to R-12. In which case he felt electric cooling fans weren't nessasary.

'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 14, 2017 06:28PM

Well maybe my memory is failing, but I recall Mark made the statement that fans are needed for a R134a conversion or the head pressure can exceed recommended limits when the engine fan is at idle speed.

With R12 an electric fan(s) are not needed, but some have used them and claim the A/C system cools better at idle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2017 06:29PM by 66vairman.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: rnch ()
Date: December 15, 2017 06:27AM

66vairman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well maybe my memory is failing, but I recall Mark
> made the statement that fans are needed for a
> R134a conversion or the head pressure can exceed
> recommended limits when the engine fan is at idle
> speed.
>
> With R12 an electric fan(s) are not needed, but
> some have used them and claim the A/C system cools
> better at idle.




This also seems to be my (somewhat fuzzy) recollection.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: December 15, 2017 06:38AM

66vairman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well maybe my memory is failing, but I recall Mark
> made the statement that fans are needed for a
> R134a conversion or the head pressure can exceed
> recommended limits when the engine fan is at idle
> speed.
>
> With R12 an electric fan(s) are not needed, but
> some have used them and claim the A/C system cools
> better at idle.

Craig replies:
Yup! Pressure is heat-energy trapped in the refrigerant. Since R134a isn't as good in terms of releasing heat, it takes assistance from fans and fancy condensers to get the heat out and reduce the high-side pressure)

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 15, 2017 08:43AM

Thanks rnch and cnicol for the clarification.

Also a HI/LO pressure switch to shut off the compressor is a wise addition to R134a systems.

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Re: Question for those with air conditioning.
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: December 15, 2017 08:57AM

Anyone had trouble with a flat mounted condenser because the liquid refrigerant wants to flow to the bottom outlet that is now level with the inlet?

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