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Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Frog ()
Date: November 05, 2017 11:04AM

My cylinders where well oiled when I installed the pistons, and the crank journals had a film of motor oil/STP combination on them.

After installation of each piston/rod/cylinder set, I checked "ease" of turning the engine using the crankshaft pulley (no harmonic balancer).

After installing set #1 and #2, I turned the whole caboodle using the crank pulley with what I thought was an excessive amount of force. Not knowing what to expect my first time doing this, I talked to my mechanic and he told be that was normal. (In retrospect, the force required was not much, at all.)

As I installed each set, I checked the hand torque required and, of course, it took more effort each time. After installing all six sets, I could still turn the crank by hand.

THEN, I went back and began torquing the cap nuts to 20 lb.ft. After each pair, it really took a lot of force to turn the engine. When I finished cylinder #6, I attempted to turn the crank pulley and the entire engine spun on the head of the engine stand. I put the pin in the head and it took all the strength I could muster from my 74-year-old body to break away and turn the engine.

I went to the forum and came across the topic "torque to turn over engine" from nine years ago. Richard1 in Bolivia posed concern about the amount of force necessary to turn over the engine by hand. Among the respondents was Bob Helt, MattNall, and "UNSAFE."

I was surprised when then consensus was that a "mere" 12 lb.ft of torque is all that's required for the breakaway, and from 7 to 22 lb.ft. to continue rotating the crankshaft.

I've read what's in the shop manual and Bob Helt's book, The Classic Corvair, regarding amount of effort to rotate engine by hand, but nothing on troubleshooting my problem.

What could I have done wrong to be able to turn with ease the crank with two cylinders installed, but nearly impossible with all six?

Thank you.

Frog

Rob Lane
Clayton, in the Northeast Georgia Mountains.
1964 500 Coupe
Purchased by me in April of 1964.

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 05, 2017 12:14PM

Clearances are on the tight side and STP doesn't help.

I would put it all together.... pre-oil it... no sparkplugs....

Bolt a starter to the bellhousing and crank it!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: SoloCP ()
Date: November 05, 2017 12:29PM

Did you have your crank turned? If so how much, are the bearings match to your new specs. I agree with Matt, STP is to thick. Buying a good assembly lube is a very small investment as it has properties to protect your bearings and crank upon start up. Easier to break it down again now and correct any issues. Good Luck

Don
Kansas City
HACOA
Broken Halo Corvair Garage.
61 Lakewood
62 Monza aka (Flicka)
62 Rampside
63 700 Sedan 3 Speed
64 Spyder Coupe (Bill Pierson Car)
64 Monza Convertible,140/4 Speed,Electric Heat,Kelsey Hayes Wheels
64 Spyder Blown, (Dave Bolduc Car)
64 Monza Convertible 110/Auto (Future Project)
65 Corsa 3.1 Liter Triple Weber (aka Unsafe)
65 Corsa 140/4 Speed with Triple Weber
66 Avenger, Corvair Turbo, Fuel Injected, Air to Water intercool 140. (Michael Mann Car)
67 Monza 110 Auto. Sugar Bear

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 05, 2017 01:01PM

I would loosen them one at a time and see where it loosens. Also one of the shells may have moved in the rod. I use STP, but mixed with oil. Straight STP will form a suction between the parts.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Frog ()
Date: November 05, 2017 05:24PM

Thank you for your comments.

I considered your suggestion, MattNall. I know you have years of experience on these issues, but here's what I'm thinking will happen if I bolted on the starter and pushed the button: something breaks, somewhere . . . so . . . I'm going to take J.O.'s and Don's suggestion, and break it down and start over by cleaning the crank journals and bearings, then use the assembly lube I'd bought for the occasion. I'd seen the recommendation to use a 50:50 mix of 30-weight motor oil and STP, and for whatever reason, I went that route instead of using the assembly lube I had on hand. Hmmmm. Maybe I overdid it on the STP.

Regarding Don's comment; I didn't turn the crank, but did have it polished. The first set of rings I used Plastigaged too tight, so I bought the next-size-up rings: clearances within specs.

Frog

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 05, 2017 05:26PM

Rings... Plastigauge? You mean brearings?





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: SoloCP ()
Date: November 05, 2017 05:39PM

Did you mic the journals on the crank after polishing ? What about the cylinders size? What kind of rings ? Very easy to get rings to bind if the Pistons grooves are not clean, did you check the rings after installation ?

Don
Kansas City
HACOA
Broken Halo Corvair Garage.
61 Lakewood
62 Monza aka (Flicka)
62 Rampside
63 700 Sedan 3 Speed
64 Spyder Coupe (Bill Pierson Car)
64 Monza Convertible,140/4 Speed,Electric Heat,Kelsey Hayes Wheels
64 Spyder Blown, (Dave Bolduc Car)
64 Monza Convertible 110/Auto (Future Project)
65 Corsa 3.1 Liter Triple Weber (aka Unsafe)
65 Corsa 140/4 Speed with Triple Weber
66 Avenger, Corvair Turbo, Fuel Injected, Air to Water intercool 140. (Michael Mann Car)
67 Monza 110 Auto. Sugar Bear

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: November 05, 2017 05:48PM

OK, go back and loosen all the rod caps and see what force it takes after they are loose. If there is a large change pull a bearing out and look to see if there is any heavy scuff marks on it. If so then the clearances are not correct.

As you mentioned as you install each cylinder the force is harder but it should not change any with tightening the rod caps. UNLESS the rod caps are mismatched to the rods! That will show a a shiny spot near the split of the rod bearing. If the rods are numbered the caps should correspond with the same number on the rod. And ALWAYS the tang on the rod and the cap go together on the same side.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Frog ()
Date: November 06, 2017 06:35AM

Jeez. Yes, I meant bearings.

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 06, 2017 07:30AM

Frog, I built mine on the tight side of all the specs about 3 years ago. When it was all together, but no spark plugs, I could hold a drill to spin the oil pump in one hand and turn the engine over with a 1/2" ratchet drive in the other. Something is too tight IMHO.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: ac1948 ()
Date: November 06, 2017 09:41AM

OP states turning engine was done by crankshaft pulley. Was wrench used on bolt? Turning engine by pulley by hand would be hard to do. Jerry

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: November 06, 2017 09:45AM

One thing I missed in my initial reading. You state several places about turning the engine at different stages, by hand, using the crank pulley. Unless I missed it, you'll be hard pressed to rotate an assembled engine without a wrench or tool of some sort on the crank bolt.

'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Frog ()
Date: November 06, 2017 10:07AM

J.O.,

I agree, something's too tight.

After clamping my case together (to specs) with camshaft and crankshaft installed, I could rotate the crank using one finger. Even after installing number one cylinder and piston set to degree the cam, I could rotate the crank very easily. I had not torqued the cap nuts and did not have rings installed on the piston for the degreeing procedure.

Came time to install the piston rings. I measured the gaps on the rings; had to file a few down to specs. Before installing the pistons, I took the cylinders to my mechanic and he measured the bores. All were within specs. My mechanic loaned me his professional-grade ring compressor. It functioned as designed; I installed the pistons into the cylinders very quickly.

Question: How much effort is normally required to push the piston back and forth in the cylinder by hand? The pistons and ring groves had been liberally lubed up.

Following through with what I said I was going to do, I removed the piston set one by one starting with number 6. Each time, as expected, I could rotate the crank with less effort.

I'm stopped at pistons one and two. Here's the one thing: with the crank placed so that the pistons are at TDC or BDC, it's very easy to move the crank through that slack of those few degrees before the slack is taken up and the pistons begin their stroke through the cylinders. When that happens, not only is increased torque required to move the pistons through the cylinder, but I can actually hear that, and I hesitate to use the term "scraping" sound, but maybe "wiping" sound the pistons make as they move back and forth through the cylinders.

Again, I've never done this before so I don't know what to expect. As I said in my opening comments, each install of a piston set required more torque, until even before torquing the cap nuts, after installing piston number six, I could barely rotate the crank pulley.

What I'm thinking here is maybe there's a problem with the snugness of the pistons in the cylinders rather than something with the bearings.

Later today I'm going to use my beam torque wrench to see how much torque is required for each install.

Thank you.

Frog

Rob Lane
Clayton, in the Northeast Georgia Mountains.
1964 500 Coupe
Purchased by me in April of 1964.

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 06, 2017 10:34AM

Its real easy to screw up the 3 piece oil rings, especially when you go in from the bottom. Don't know, just a thought.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 06, 2017 10:54AM

Frog, I hoping Steve Goodman or Ken Hand has some comments about this, those guys are the gold standard when it comes to this stuff.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: November 07, 2017 04:25AM

I did comment earlier.

The piston rings will scrape on the cylinder walls and make a sound. You installed the pistons in each cylinder by the sounds of it, how much force did it take to push the piston in? Then X 6! It will get harder to turn with each cylinder.

What you did mention is it got really hard when you tightened the rod caps, see my earlier comment.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Frog ()
Date: November 07, 2017 05:54AM

J.O., Regarding your comment about installing the rings; I installed them from the top and the 3-piece oil ring set slid into the cylinders with no problem.

I know, "there's no such thing as a dumb question," so here goes: Does it matter which direction I rotate the engine when I'm testing the torque? The reason I ask this is because if I have to rotate it in its operating direction of counterclockwise, I'm gonna have to torque down the pulley nut to its max lest it back out when I start applying more effort down the line with my beam torque wrench as I check each piston installation.

I probably should go back to square one and Plastigage the whole affair.

Instead, I'm going to start over with the piston installations. I'm going to clean each journal and bearing, add a dab of assembly lube, install each cylinder starting with number six, snug up the cap nuts--check the effort--torque the nut to 10 lb.ft.--check the effort--then torque the nut to 20 lb.ft., then check the breakaway and motion torque with my beam torque wrench.

The reason I'm going to start with number six is because it was after torquing that one to specification (minimum 20 lb.ft.), that I couldn't turn the engine over by hand using the crank pulley.

Don in Kansas City, you asked me if I mic'd the journals on the crank after polishing? Yes, I just talked to my mechanic and he told that did mic the crank, afterwards.What about the cylinders size? I mentioned my mechanic checked those--within specs. What kind of rings? The new cylinders, pistons, and rings were sent by Clark's as a "matched" set. Very easy to get rings to bind if the pistons grooves are not clean, did you check the rings after installation? Piston were new so groves were spic-and-span.

While just now talking with Jeff, my mechanic, he told me that he would not expect me to be able to turn the engine over by hand using the crank pulley--just as you in the forum said. He said that if I could, something's too loose. He also asked how much pressure does it take to move the pistons by hand in the cylinder. I'm heading out now down to his shop with cylinders/pistons in hand to get his professional opinion on this.

Frog

Rob Lane
Clayton, in the Northeast Georgia Mountains.
1964 500 Coupe
Purchased by me in April of 1964.

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: November 07, 2017 07:00AM

I'm hoping this disassembly wasn't a complete waste of time because you were trying to rotate it by hand on the crank pulley. At that point it might have payed to put your beam torque wrench on it to get break away and rotating force required and reported that. Lesson learned.

'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Noel Felty ()
Date: November 07, 2017 07:36AM

How well did block assembly go? I know when I have assembled block halves together I actually have had to start over a couple times. Sometimes after installing crank and cam and mating block halves they can start geting too tight. I stop and start over if this happens. I check clearances each time and torque the block halves in 5ftlb increments using a rubber mallet to beat top of block after each torque sequence. Make sure you can get block mated and spin crank easily by hand before starting connecting rods.

Noel Felty
Brevard, NC
1966 Corsa 140 Before

1966 Corsa After

1972 Ford f100

Corsa SC
NC Mountain Corvairs

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Re: Turning Engine by Hand
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: November 07, 2017 08:22AM

From an earlier post.


Frog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After clamping my case together (to specs) with
> camshaft and crankshaft installed, I could rotate
> the crank using one finger.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Frog

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