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A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cschneider53 ()
Date: August 10, 2017 05:33PM

I'm building a 140 that I hope to add Clarks A/C and EFI somewhere down the road. At the moment the budget doesn't provide for an extra $4k so I just want to add the parts that will make my life easier once I finally get the money together. In other words, what stuff should I add to the engine while I'm building it that can help me avoid having to pull it in the future?

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: August 10, 2017 05:40PM

Make sure your heads have the 3/ 8s hole. Right head needs them for a/c bracket.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe, 180 hp 4 Spd
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 10, 2017 05:41PM

AC parts can be added at any time.

If you are planning for port fuel injection, (6 injectors), you may want to have the cylinder heads modified by welding-in fuel injector bungs.

I would also suggest a modern-grind EFI camshaft. When I first built my 140 EFI, I used a stock 304 cam. That turned out to be less than optimal because the low idle vacuum was interpreted by the EFI system as engine load and it upped the fuel delivery. Eventually the EFI figured it out but it was a recurring issue and the cause of idle instability. I had Ray Sedman grind an EFI cam that that fixed that.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

Attachments:

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Melb-Mike ()
Date: August 10, 2017 06:09PM

Wow, nice set up.

64 Greenbrier
64 Spyder (needs restoration)
65 Corsa 140, restored
66 Corsa turbo, restoring now
66 Corsa 140 "RR" code coupe fully restored
67 Pontiac GTO restored
69 Corvette 427 convertible restored
2004 Caterham R400 (Lotus super7)my race car
2015 Porsche Panamera S
2015 Corvette Z06
1965 AC Cobra (Factory Five)

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cschneider53 ()
Date: August 10, 2017 07:33PM

I'd be going with the kits from Clarks on the A/C and EFI.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: August 10, 2017 07:37PM

Need the larger bolt holes on the head to properly secure the A/C mount bracket. Lots of weight resting on those holes even with the lower suppport bracket.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe, 180 hp 4 Spd
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: August 10, 2017 10:49PM

Craig,

I like that A/C setup with the EFI. Is that the stock Clarks A/C mount? Did you have to modify it to fit around the EFI port fuel injection bungs?

Also, can you share the specs on the cam?

I plan on adding A/C to the 67 coupe I just acquired. Likely the Clarks setup.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: glivorsi ()
Date: August 11, 2017 10:09AM

I'm no EFI expert, but I think you'll need a crank position sensor and a place to mount it.

Greg in Wildwood, MO (part of the St. Louis urban sprawl)

1965 Monza Vert 110PG, Crocus Yellow with black interior and top

2006 Mazdaspeed 6
1997 Honda CBR1100XX

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 11, 2017 10:54AM

john.jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Craig,
>
> I like that A/C setup with the EFI. Is that the
> stock Clarks A/C mount? Did you have to modify it
> to fit around the EFI port fuel injection bungs?
>
> Also, can you share the specs on the cam?

Craig replies:
That's not a Clark's mount, it's one I made using a universal vertical bracket for Sandens (It's available in the street-rod world) with a custom-made base bracket and stock lower AC support.

As for the cam, I don't have the specs anymore but it's a standard Ray Sedman street EFI cam for 140.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 11, 2017 10:56AM

glivorsi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm no EFI expert, but I think you'll need a crank
> position sensor and a place to mount it.

Craig replies:
Batch-fire and TBI systems only need RPM, not crank position. The only systems that need the crank position are sequential EFI systems (an emissions thing, not a factor in performance)

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: August 11, 2017 12:30PM

Look very closely at Craig's Air Conditioning COMPRESSOR!

Something very much like what Craig has is what you should use!

YOU DO NOT WANT TO GO WITH AN OLD-TIMEY big old A-6 for the compressor!

Perhaps Craig will elaborate on the advantages of going with a newer design and much more efficient and lighter compressor such as that or the Sanden types found on VW Rabbit convertibles-VW CABRIOLET, from say the mid eighties thru the 1993 model, and many other vehicles.

There is nothing wrong with an ancient A-6 from an operational standpoint. It was a durable, great quality compressor. GM did do a few things better than most in the automotive industry for decades, and the two that come to mind are A/C and Automatic Transmissions like the TH-400. Very good and durable.
The old A-6 was used on many vehicles. It was great.
On the Corvair however, it (the A-6) is reliable as always BUT THE HUGE WEIGHT AND ADDED WORK THAT THE CORVAIR MUST DO versus A LIGHTER MORE EFFICIENT, More Compact, More Modern, Yet Equally Reliable Sanden rotary type that is reasonably inexpensive and available everywhere.
You should also consider alternative placement of Air Conditioning CONDENSER, where it is both most functional and offers ease of servicing your engine and engine bay area. You should know that you will need a larger surface area for AC Condenser with Modern Refrigerants. My guess is you'll need 30% larger Condenser than stock with most vehicles over the same size Condenser and R-12 (freon). Now that may not exactly true for late model Corvairs since GM did give the Corvair a very large Condenser as opposed to other cars that had smallish condensers out in front of a radiator.
THE COST FOR AC Condensers, either aftermkt or factory replacement for various makes/models including modern GM vehicle applications as well as every other manufacturer's potential "DONOR" models that might offer the best OFF THE SHELF DESIGN, SIZE, and PLACEMENT ABILITY. Used Condensers certainly can used as can multiple condensers, but there are certain details that you gotta be certain about. Your local A/C service shop can provide you DETAILS and ASSISTANCE that will make your system the best possible. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DESIGN A SYSTEM WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH AN A/C PROFESSIONAL, Unless, you already are very knowlegeable and skilled in this area. Someone such as Craig can provide guidance on this subject that will be worth its weight in gold. Remember that Ted B can also tell you everything you'd want to know about the EFI system you're planning to get from CLARKS CORVAIR.
Research It, Plan to do it the best way possible from the start, so that you don't have to waste money doing some of it again, because you failed to attend to something, while you had the opportunity to do so. DON'T DO IT LIKE THEY DID IT IN 1967 or 1963 , from the factory, IF THERE IS AN ACCEPTED SUPERIOR METHOD OF DOING IT that is the preferred proceedure today! Low quality junk IN = POS outcome!
Better Engineering, better methods, better components/materials, improved parts and technology, will allow for a much better Corvair than was possible from GM in the sixties.
.....One small step for folks like the late Milt B, Craig, Ray, Teddy B and countless others have made for HUGE ADVANCES in CORVAIR quality.
If you've got the chance to ask these living geniuses,about why & how they did it a certain way... and how best to apply their set-up to your vehicle, you can't go wrong.
Don't wait decades to adopt something because the inventor/designer/genius might be long gone or the system/part might no longer be in production.........think bucketboss's radio bezel or many other long gone accessories.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: August 11, 2017 01:10PM

I agree with the sanden compressor. The rest of my Monzasystem is OEM.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe, 180 hp 4 Spd
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: cschneider53 ()
Date: August 11, 2017 01:42PM

The Clarks kit uses a Sanden compressor. I talked with Clarks and they everything is bolt on so there really isn't a need to do anything until I buy the full kits.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: August 11, 2017 02:23PM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> glivorsi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm no EFI expert, but I think you'll need a
> crank
> > position sensor and a place to mount it.
>
> Craig replies:
> Batch-fire and TBI systems only need RPM, not
> crank position. The only systems that need the
> crank position are sequential EFI systems (an
> emissions thing, not a factor in performance)

Should also be noted the Toyota and other OEMs are installing TBI injection to improve fuel economy in addition to sequential EFI. Look at the 3.5 v6 in the Tacoma.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: teddbrown ()
Date: August 11, 2017 04:25PM

john.jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cnicol Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > glivorsi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I'm no EFI expert, but I think you'll need a
> > crank
> > > position sensor and a place to mount it.
> >
> > Craig replies:
> > Batch-fire and TBI systems only need RPM, not
> > crank position. The only systems that need the
> > crank position are sequential EFI systems (an
> > emissions thing, not a factor in performance)
>
> Should also be noted the Toyota and other OEMs are
> installing TBI injection to improve fuel economy
> in addition to sequential EFI. Look at the 3.5 v6
> in the Tacoma.

Technically Yes. On the GM TBI system, the Crank position sensor tell the DIS where No #1 plug is and when to fire, in turn tells the ECM the RPM which is calculated into fuel. On the later GM OBD-1 (the one I use), Bank fire could be altered by degrees (which used the Crank Sensor to offset fire Injectors). All TBIs that I know of use a Crank Position Sensor to know engine speed (RPM) and use that info for more than just fueling (Ie: Timing, Transmission shifting, cruise control, etc).

Cam Position Sensor are for more advanced uses of EFI and not used in conventional TBI Systems.

The Brown EFI (which is Clarks EFI) can accommodate A/C by moving the DIS to the #5 area of the engine bay and rerouting the plug wires and DIS wiring. This EFI system also has a wire to connect to the A/C compressor which detects 12VDC present (compressor engaged) and bumps up the idle 100 RPMs to offset compressor drag.

Ted
Anderson,SC
www.Corvair-efi.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2017 04:27PM by teddbrown.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: August 11, 2017 04:34PM

john.jackson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cnicol Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > glivorsi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I'm no EFI expert, but I think you'll need a
> > crank
> > > position sensor and a place to mount it.
> >
> > Craig replies:
> > Batch-fire and TBI systems only need RPM, not
> > crank position. The only systems that need the
> > crank position are sequential EFI systems (an
> > emissions thing, not a factor in performance)
>
> Should also be noted the Toyota and other OEMs are
> installing TBI injection to improve fuel economy
> in addition to sequential EFI. Look at the 3.5 v6
> in the Tacoma.

John, The 3.5 in the Tacoma is either multiport or direct injected. Both variants are sequential. I do not know of any manufacturer that sells vehicles with TBI in North America anymore

Lee J
Southern New Jersey near Philly.
1966 Corsa 180/4 speed
1969 Monza convertible 140/4 speed

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: August 11, 2017 04:59PM

> > Should also be noted the Toyota and other OEMs
> are
> > installing TBI injection to improve fuel
> economy
> > in addition to sequential EFI. Look at the 3.5
> v6
> > in the Tacoma.
>
> John, The 3.5 in the Tacoma is either multiport or
> direct injected. Both variants are sequential. I
> do not know of any manufacturer that sells
> vehicles with TBI in North America anymore

You are correct! I confused TBI with multiport. Got to watch when I take my meds these days.

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: August 13, 2017 12:15PM

I think the TBI injector is to help keep the intake valves clean on the direct-injected engines.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Warner Robins, GA, Soon to be Oklahoma City, OK

Click for Warner Robins, GeorgiaForecast


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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: August 13, 2017 12:36PM

Spectre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the TBI injector is to help keep the
> intake valves clean on the direct-injected
> engines.

With nothing but filtered air hitting the valve on a direct injection setup, what gets the intakes dirty? PCV?

'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: A/C and EFI Engine Build 140
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: August 13, 2017 06:41PM

Some direct injection engines are having trouble with the valve stem oil coking up on the back side of the hot intake valves because there's no atomized fuel in the intake air to wash it away. The build up can cause the valves to leak and restricts air flow.

Dan Brizendine,
'64 8door Greenbrier 140 PG. "In beautiful Wanamaker Indiana...with one stop light and 5 pizza shops"

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