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Current Page: 11 of 12
Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: August 31, 2019 09:00AM

Kevin, I am interested but it depends on your price for this batch. Do you have any pricing guidance yet?

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 11:21AM

BobV66Vair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin, I am interested but it depends on your price for this batch. Do you have any pricing guidance yet?

I'm not sure yet except that it will probably be half or less than the current limited run of fans. Even if it ended up being half as much, the hp/dollar is really hard to beat!, especially when the gains are coming from a fan. The only, approximately similar thing that I can think of that would produce the kind of gain in hp that my fan can do would come from changing over to a Porsche style fan.

The complete conversion, shroud, pulleys and fan, according to Michael Leveque
in a post on facebook was 1700. If you try and do this yourself, but buy one of Tom Knoblauch's fans, he has stated these are 950. If you decide to go through all of the hassles involved in making a O.E. Porsche fan work, these can be had on ebay for 570 something, but now you have to buy/make a whole bunch of other stuff like a shroud, pulleys, brackets, and change the engine direction and have costs related to that, and I have NO doubt at all that Michael Levegues price is a real deal considering all the costs of going that route.
Everybody that runs these will tell you they are NOT for street cars. This is because they have low rpm cooling problems... this is because of the nature of axial fans to have a stall at low rpms... they simply will not work properly until they are spun up high enough. If you gear one of these kind of fans tall enough to cure that, you will find that it is using way more power than it ought to at high engine rpms, it is that simple, there is nothing that can be done about it short of doing all of the things that were done on factory Porsche installs.
These kind of fans don't cool better than the stock fan does, because they don't make any more pressure than the stock fan does... they do, however cool
better in the sense that they will not burn an engine up from having a belt come off.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: August 31, 2019 11:36AM

I too am curious about the final production price. Nice bump in usable HP and better cooling.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Norman, OK

<a href="[www.wunderground.com] src="[weathersticker.wunderground.com]; alt="Click for Norman, Oklahoma Forecast" height="90" width="160"></a>

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: AlecCarlson ()
Date: August 31, 2019 03:13PM

Kevin,

Can you define "low RPM's" from your last post. I have a '65 Corsa turbo and I idle at 1000 RPM. Is that "low" or acceptable ?

Alec

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 06:10PM

Kevin, have you ever plotted a graph of the parasitic loses of a mag fan VS your at various PPMs.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 06:29PM

AlecCarlson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin,
>
> Can you define "low RPM's" from your last post. I have a '65 Corsa turbo and I idle at 1000 RPM. Is that "low" or acceptable ?
>
> Alec

Low rpm cooling is generally defined as the kind of rpms seen in slow moving street traffic... probably 2500 rpms and less would cover that. My idle on my turbo is 1000 rpm, and most of my driving is in that range, unless I'm out having fun! with the stock fan, even in hot weather, 310-320 was what I thought of as being "normal", in this kind of rpm range. With my fan, with the guide vane bell, in the same conditions, it has a hard time getting past 300, and will always be at 280 at idle. I run this engine at considerably leaner mixtures in light loads than I did with the stock fan, so this would give you an idea of what the low rpm cooling is with a fan like mine is, without taking the lower shrouds off, without cheating and running it way rich.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 06:58PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin, have you ever plotted a graph of the parasitic loses of a mag fan VS your at various PPMs.

Yes, its a few pages back in this thread. It is, hard to read because the numbers on the plot lines are too small though. a couple of weeks ago, I suddenly realized that the numbers I got for my fan, verified in re-testing that I did this summer are the same exact numbers as the mag fan does with the damper doors shut, so you could look at the graph in Seth's fine book "Performance Corvairs" and look at the graph that shows the power usage with the doors open versus when they are shut. This is an enormous difference!
An easier way to figure it out, is to reduce the power usage of the stock fan by 60%, so for example, when the stock fan is at 8 hp, mine is 3.2 (roughly)
when the stock fan is using 15.6 (@5k) mine is roughly 6.24, when the stock fan is at 6k its using 27 hp, mine would be expected to be no worse than 10.8, although I haven't tested it there yet, although my suspicion is it's probably a tad less.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 07:19PM

Understood, when I used to drag mine, I pinned the doors closed and pulled the convertible corner dampers. Talk about cheap HP. Surprising pulling the muffler made less improvement.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: August 31, 2019 07:29PM

The fan should make a significant fuel mileage improvement at higher speeds.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 07:34PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Understood, when I used to drag mine, I pinned the doors closed and pulled the convertible corner dampers. Talk about cheap HP. Surprising pulling the muffler made less improvement.

I would be willing to bet that removing the muffler made way more power than putting on roller rockers on though!! I tried adding up the cost for doing that today, and came up with 764, without shipping, then a friend told me that I had neglected to add the cost of custom length heavy duty pushrods, and that brings the total to around 900.00 without shipping, and that mod will only gain 2% or 2-3 hp at best!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 07:56PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fan should make a significant fuel mileage improvement at higher speeds.

It could help, especially if the tuning of the engine is better dialed taking into account the much enhanced cooling... more compression ratio, more aggressive light load timing, a/f closer to stoich in light loads. If I knew in advance what my fan and cam was going to be like, I think I would have upped the compression to 8.5:1. Its only 8.0 now. My gas mileage is roughly 20%
better than I could do with a carb on, but this is all because of the efi. I bet it would be easy to see a difference in gas mileage just from swapping the fan if the comparison is with the stock fan with the lower shrouds off, vs mine with the lower shrouds off.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: August 31, 2019 08:45PM

I was thinking the amount of HP saved at 4000 rpm should make a noticable improvement.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 31, 2019 09:39PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was thinking the amount of HP saved at 4000 rpm should make a noticable improvement.

At those kind of rpms, yes the hp saved can make a noticeable difference in gas consumption... I roughed it out as being a 5% to 6% reduction in fuel usage, on a 140, and for a 80 hp engine, the difference looks to be 8%, which seems like a lot of fuel saved for swapping out a fan!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: cmgilber ()
Date: September 01, 2019 02:19AM

Kevin, Please add me to the list. I would like to try it out when it's ready.

Chris Gilbertson Concord NC
1966 Corsa Convertible 140/4sp Factory A/C

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 01, 2019 08:25PM

Thanks Chris!! you are officially on the list!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: CORSATURBO65 ()
Date: September 08, 2019 10:23AM

Kevin:

Kevin:

You will have to forgive me, but I simply couldn't resist,..... I can't stop thinking... If KEITH WOODS crude electric fan works 90% of the time with an electric motor, Hmmmmmm?
He did repeatedly make claims to have several dozens of paying users with no complaints at all under any type of use.

What about a "Kevin Nash simultaneous comparison" testing on an electric motor powered version of the "NASH fan" using the most updated electric motor version currently technologically possible, that was similarly compact to the KEITH WOODS version.

Successful and very accurate test and pressure / temperature data collection, could nip the spastic haters in the bud!
That aggravation alone may be worth the development efforts?

Say you will do it simultaneously with your belt driven efforts, and I will start dreaming about my engine at 6,500 rpm with my perfectly straight and precisely aligned belt smoothly spinning just my alternator. [And maybe an A/C compressor for the mini fridge where the back seat used to be.

I am seriously extremely eager to hear what the haters have to say about this.

CORSATURBO65



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2019 02:14PM by MattNall.

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 08, 2019 11:27AM

Not "haters" "Realists" LOL!!


WHO is Kevin Woods???

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 08, 2019 11:59AM

Well, now that you brought it up... As long as the cooling requirements are kept reasonable, the torque requirements for my fan are such that one could actually drive the fan with an electric motor, and it might be not too out of the question to drive my fan up to 6000 rpm that way. The big, and probably only real advantage that this kind of system would be a super fast warm up, and of course, the "style" points for getting rid of the hated/beloved (take your pick) mule drive.

This is why it is a silly idea even if it does work. If it is a constant speed motor, it will be constantly over cooling or under cooling unless the load on the engine matches the cooling that the speed of the fan is being run at. No problem, make this motor variable speed... then you find out that the speed variations for the electric motor actually track the engine rpm... to keep the temperature of the heads constant, the fan rpm needs to rise and fall
as the engine rpm rises and falls. Its much more efficient to do this with a belt than it is to use a belt to drive a oversized alternator to run a variable speed drive to run an electric motor, as long as the correct pulley ratio for the fan/belt drive was picked to keep good low rpm cooling.
E-drives are always proposed to "solve" the "drive problem"... this is the fact that any axial fan that is sized and sped up enough to keep the engine cool at 1000 rpm, will end up using 30 hp or more over a 5000rpm spread for the engine, and this comes from the fan laws, where the hp usage for the fan goes up by the CUBE of the rpm. Axial fans follow this law absolutely perfectly, and backwards curved fans deviate from this law considerably at high flow rates... there always comes a point where the usage goes down by 20% or more compared to what the laws say they should, and this property can and should be exploited with my fan by extra auxiliary doors on the lower shrouds... as the load on the engine increases the aux doors could be rigged to open causing the airflow to go up and the usage go down... the more and better these things are exploited, the less sense an e-drive makes.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 08, 2019 02:09PM

There are are still other laws of physics. When you change from mechanical to electric you have losses. The when you go back from electric to mechanical you have additional losses. So even with the new fan, the overall HP load on the engine would be greater with electric setup.

I was working with the reverse a lot of this stuff in the 70s when I designed and built my own wind generator and also a grid tie inverter. It took lots and lots of hours to get the bugs out of it, but it was all fun.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: CORSATURBO65 ()
Date: September 08, 2019 02:11PM

CAUGHT THAT RIGHT AWAY!!
JUST NOT WITHIN EIGHT MINUTES.

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Current Page: 11 of 12


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