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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: July 07, 2018 03:10PM

Good news! nice improvement.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 08, 2018 09:43AM

Right on Tom! thanks! Heres some pictures of my new bell installed. It was 3D
printed from ULTEM. Although I'm not proud of the attaching clamps, and kind of
embarrassed that it doesn't fit the top of the shroud properly unless it is
stretched open from a split in the back (increasing the diameter), it is freaking AMAZING the gains that I've seen when tested with the revised air flow pulley... the gains are so huge I'm going to have to re-do the tests to make sure I didn't screw up somehow- very "disproportionate" to how the bell
tested with the closed stock style pulley and how the revised airflow pulley
tested without the bell. I'm also happy that this tiny little bell is performing so well... it has done much better than any of the large and impractical ones that I tested on my fixture.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



Attachments:


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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: July 08, 2018 09:53AM

Next question is "how would it work on a stock mag fan?"





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: kdrolt ()
Date: July 08, 2018 10:02AM

To clarify, the part you added is a "dog collar" around the outer perimeter of the fan opening in the top engine cover (aka turkey roaster). This functions the same way a bell opening does on a velocity stack, because it limits or prevents the vena contracta (a shrikage of the main flow diameter). This probably allows more flow, so you would measure both cfm increase and a plenum air pressure increase. This also increases the power pulled from the engine. So it could be argued that a smaller than stock 1.58 to 1 pully ratio could return the aiflow to stock while also reducing the power loss.

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: July 08, 2018 02:23PM

Yet another endorsement of the 1960 air control ring!

Crawford Rose

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: GWLee ()
Date: July 08, 2018 03:24PM

Crawford I was just thinkng the same thing.

Lee Adkins

A Cave Man car
1960 2dr Coupe with pg
Color Tasco Turq.
With Ermine white top.

Catlettsburg,
In the Beautiful state of
North/East KY!

Not the best pic, but the only I had from then, 1997!

2016!

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: July 08, 2018 06:05PM

Hmmmmm.
Just curious here.
Looking at these close-up pictures of a Turbo engine has got me thinking.....
Has anyone ever measured the intake temps right at the manifold to head transition on a turbo engine?
Does that longer runner on the left, combined with the massive air flow for engine cooling created any inter-cooling effect on the drivers-side of the engine?
Yes, Haters, I realize that it would be minuscule at best, I just was wondering if anyone has ever measured it.
Is there any difference?
Or is the intake mixture moving through there too fast to make any change?
Inquiring A.D.D. minds want to know.

.
-----------------------------------------------
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 08, 2018 06:30PM

Mel- I haven't ever tested that. I can tell you though that the stagger (drivers side longer than the passenger side) does have a tendency to cause
a flow imbalance, at least when carbureted. Numerous checks of spark plugs
over the years on my car showed me that the drivers side cylinders had a tendency to run leaner than the right. It had a lot to do with how dirty or
not the valves got... on the rich side the valves never got carboned up real
bad, the drivers side were the ones that could get carboned up, leading to the flow imbalance. Its my belief that it is caused during load conditions that
leave the fuel poorly emulsified... this fuel gravity feeds to the passenger side, keeping the valves cooler than they might other wise be.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 08, 2018 07:34PM

Here's the updated pressure and estimated flow numbers for my fan with the revised airflow pulley and bell mouth:

engine rpm pressure flow
1000 .54 362
2000 2.3 748
3000 4.6 1052
4000 7.93 1389
5000 12.5 1743
5250 13.65 1827

The 5250 rpm pressure I didn't get a good read on, as I was getting a little
freaked out piss winding it like that while looking at the manometer and then
checking the tach.

The above pressures were recorded hot, with the head temperatures a tic over 300f, just like the earlier test of the Nashfan, the exception is that all of these numbers were recorded while driving today, all of the earlier numbers up
to 3k were done while sitting in the car, parked, and the 4k and 5k numbers were obtained while driving, so the pressure numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt, as there's some experimental error in both tests. With that disclaimer, I will tell you that the above numbers are darned near identical
with the "best" (highest) hot pressure numbers that I got in my stock mag fan
test, and it is hard to see much difference in pressure or flow numbers between
my fan and the stock 140 tests, at least up to 4k.
More later!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 09, 2018 08:18PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Next question is "how would it work on a stock
> mag fan?"

It ought to work just fine as far as raising the output goes- the bugger
is (as usual) is that it does cause it to use even more power than it already
does. You could, however come to a much nicer match for your driving and cooling needs though by gearing the fan down some and perhaps take the lower
shrouds off when you want to pin it for a long time... Theres lot of annoyances
that come with taking the shrouds off however. I've never done it. One thing
I'm toying with though, is cutting some large holes in the lower shrouds and
putting some flaps on, and figure out a way to get those flaps to begin opening
when the heads get to 320. For my car, I can use the radiator fan controls within my efi to open and close those doors as needed, as long as the inputs
can be made to mimic the head temps. A super slick refinement might be to vary
the vane angle to try and keep the heads at 320, perhaps by having a temp sensor somewhere in the lower shrouds that try's to maintain a constant "exhaust" temperature.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: July 11, 2018 03:23PM

Two questions.

1. When are you going to have it for sale?

2. How much?

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 11, 2018 07:17PM

wv-geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Two questions.
>
> 1. When are you going to have it for sale?
>
> 2. How much?

My best answers are that I don't know at this time... I seriously want for this
fan to be as well tested and proven as can be done, and although I feel like I've already done more to demonstrate and post the capabilities of a alternative Corvair fan design than any one else has, I'm not quite done yet.
I want to re-test the hp usage with the new intake to see what impact that had
on the changes, and, noticing how the pressure numbers seemed to have made large changes at certain rpms and not as much change at others, but generally made the pressure curve a little less "squirrely" and it happened with less intake area, maybe the thing to do is try going for more intake speed by trying a smaller bell... the bell by itself actually increased the flow by roughly 3%, but the area had been reduced 10%... a really fast, efficient intake might up the flow some more at higher rpms and further reduce the power. HMMM!
Anyways, I don't have any pricing information at this time, other than I am working on it and all I can really say is that it will be affordable. There may
be a small number of pre-production prototypes for sale as a final test for sizing, but these will be going to owners that will be willing to do testing and will be okay with the kind of pricing that goes with stuff like that.
I hope to be finished with my testing this fall, and most of the interesting
stuff with efficiency should be done well before then. I do have one other tester that will be able to do a much much more complete set of tests than I'm able to do, and would like to wait until those are done before anything gets sold.
Anyways, in the meantime, if you or anyone else for that matter would be interested in a fan like this, feel free to pm me and ask to be put on the list, as others have.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: July 11, 2018 11:15PM

Don't take too long. I need to know how many pennies to save.

Eric C. Player
Porterville, CA
- National Member, CORSA
- Member: Central Coast CORSA
- Former Member: Vintage CORSA Orange County & South Coast CORSA Los Angeles California Chapters. Member, ISA (Int. Screenwriter's Assn.), SAG Eligible, and Producer's Guild Aspirant


* Then: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red/1965 Monza 110 Purple/
1967 Monza 140 Red/1966 500 110 Black/1965 Monza 110 Yellow
* Now: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo Project. Blue, Blue/Beige interior.



"Chevrolet's Corvair was a maverick machine, a rear-engined renegade born out of spite and genius." -- Sports Car Graphic, August 1969

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: July 12, 2018 08:27AM

playerpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't take too long. I need to know how many
> pennies to save.

Same here.

PM sent to be placed on list.

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 17, 2018 06:49PM

I had hoped to get more testing done, it is becoming clear that fan testing
season has drawn to a close, as it is getting too darned hot out to do good repeatable tests. I guess I'm going to have to finish in the fall. Anyways, here is a plot that shows how my fan stacks up against the mag fan in tests that I did on my car. Keep in mind, all of my tests were done with the mag fan
with a much faster pulley ratio of 1.72:1, and ought to have done much better than it did. The 2 important mag fan tests are the "hot test" and the one that
was done with "light dragging" of the alternator pulley, as it shows how bad and how quick belt slippage starts effecting the fan output. Also, for a rough comparison, the GM 140 mag fan tests, which were done cold, show a pressure of
8.3 at 4000 rpm, and only 10.5 at 5250... theres no more to be had, and is probably going to be lower by quite a bit when the engine is hot. The 61-63
fan only gets to 11.5 at 5250, and theres no more after that... that is the source of the high rpm cooling problems with Corvairs, even without any belt slippage. As you can see, my fan is doing a heck of a lot better up there especially when set-up right!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: July 19, 2018 03:51PM

What kind of performance does the Magnesium fan have with the 1.58 ratio pulley? Is it comparable? It seems that the Nash fan is performing under the curves of the mag fans due to the ratio differences until 4000 rpm.

Crawford

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: July 19, 2018 08:41PM

Crawford- I'm not sure, as I don't have hot data for the mag fan with the stock ratio. All of the GM data that I know about is done with a cold engine, and you can certainly see the huge differences in pressure after 3000 rpm between hot and cold, for the mag fan. The pressures hot are way more important
than when cold... most of the time, the pressures I got at 4k when hot (for my stock mag fan tests with the tall ratio) were consistently less than the 8.3" that was used for the "hot" pressure test... 6.5 to 7.5 would be more like it... that's why the "hot" plot was labeled best. I probably didn't have it quite hot enough. My notes from that test were that the head temps read 300 degrees, but the damper doors had been blocked open, so it was more like "luke warm" than hot. I hesitate to try and predict what the hot data might be for a mag fan at the stock ratio, because of how non predictable the pressure curve is with my hot data after 3000. I noticed a weird kooky pulsing that happened at 3000 rpm when the engine was hot and using a liquid u-tube manometer, but didn't notice it when using the digital one... the pressure fluctuations were quite sizable, it was as though the fan was "spitting back" hot air out the inlet and taking it back in. I don't know quite what is up with that unless the blade stagger does it at certain rpms. My other tester ought to be able to make a better comparison than I can, as all of his tests will be done with a stock pulley ratio.

Some big take away's from the comparisons that I posted:
1. The shape of the pressure curve for both of my fan tests are exactly how a good fan is supposed to look.
2. large, significant changes in output can be had by changing the airflow path in the intake... the change is basically 6.5% difference in flow, which is a bit more than double the difference in output than the flow differences between the mag fan and the 61-63 fan.
3. If the mag fan had been geared down to the point of being approximately equal horsepower usage, My fan would be putting out 20% more flow than the mag
fan would be... roughly 44% more pressure!!
4. A production fan based on my design using a 1.58:1 pulley ratio with the optimized airflow pulley and bell would show a pressure curve more like the "cold" pressure test, the differences would be that it would be at 11" at 4k instead of 10", because mine actually follows the fan laws like it is supposed to instead of beginning to crap out like the stock fan does, and still be using A LOT less power... this is a tremendous increase in flow, and most cars would be much better off gearing it down, which is a huge benefit all by itself... less inertia effect, a lot less belt slippage, and much better belt life and all of the "mule drive" problems magically go away..
5. All of the neat cooling tricks that people have used in the past with the stock fan work a heck of a lot better with mine, without the severe horsepower
usage penalty that usually goes with "upping the output. I'm particularly curious to see how my prototype fan does at high speeds and boost with the lower shrouds off!

Some general non scientific observations that I've noticed with my fan- it does appear to be cooling quite nicely despite me running the engine fairly lean when cruising along. Despite my fan being ridiculously heavy compared to
a production fan based on my design, the large reduction in horsepower usage is
easy to feel and quite noticeable... it is so much fun to drive it like this!!
I cant imagine what it would be like if it weighed 50-60% less and geared down
a bit. With the stock fan on, I used to always notice a lot of black dust collecting around the face of the alternator, and the fan belt ALWAYS seemed darned hot (as in almost too hot to touch)…and often would seem to loosen when
the engine was good and warm. With my fan on, the belt stays cool and will tighten when the engine is warm (from engine thermal expansion), and the alternator doesn't get black powdery
crap on it... direct evidence that theres a lot less belt slippage with my fan
than the stock fan. Also, there does seem to be a slight amount of fan noise (I wasn't sure what it was at first)… the turbo and efi fuel pump are often louder though.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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