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Current Page: 3 of 5
Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: May 27, 2018 11:41AM

Kevin,


Any impressions about fan noise? Know it is early in testing and other things are much more important, but thought I would ask.

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 27, 2018 12:11PM

John- As best I can determine, at low rpms, I cant really hear it, at high rpms, it may sound like the turbo is spooling up, or it may be that the turbo
is spooling up... I literally cant tell, as the sound is at the same loudness
and pitch as the turbo sounds when spooling up. That's all I think I know about that at this time. I don't have sound deadening material or cardboard
behind the rear seat so I often can hear engine sounds that one cant normally hear with all the stuff in place- When I was running the stock fan before, I had the same "no sound deadening material and no cardboard behind the rear seat" set-up and there were times when I could hear the same turbo spooling
sound so I guess if it is actually the fan causing this, then the overall noise level coming from the fan would be the same.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 27, 2018 12:25PM

You need to get that 2nd fan? to me to test on a stocker 110 in a full interior '67 cp. gggg





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: May 27, 2018 12:50PM

Thanks for the update! Hp numbers are impressive.smileys with beer

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 27, 2018 07:16PM

Matt- does that mean we race interiors for pink slips?smiling smiley

Craig... thanks!

I just tried the next tension point- when the fan is spinning 6820 (engine rpm
is 4316.6) the drive hp appears to be 4.54 hp, and this would put the drive
hp at 5k at 6hp. Also, at the test point of 6820 fan rpm, the efficiency seems
to be 41%. The efficiency at the other, earlier test point is 54%, and although
these 2 efficiency points seem a bit low, they are a huge improvement over the 28-29% efficiency seen with the mag fan and the 16% efficiency that the 61-63 fan has at these elevated rpms.
I believe that I can improve the peak efficiency another 10% at least by changing the intake flow pattern... it has been apparent for quite a while now
that my fan in particular really, seriously wants to draw air from right under
the pulley, which it cant do very well because the pulley blocks it, and ends up tipping the air path more sideways. I haven't got my "airflow pulley" finished yet, which I wanted to try for this first test but that can wait- I'm
also waiting to receive my new bell mouth that should work well with the pulley.

Here's some pressure numbers, all were done at a head temperature of roughly 300 degrees, damper doors as open as the temps would allow:
engine rpm pressure est. flow
1k .44-.48 342
2k 1.7-1.82 644
3k 4-4.02 987
4k 7.78 1377
5k 11.3 1660

This last point was done while driving, and although this point is
not as certain as the others, I've done this same test this same way while driving and got 11.5 at roughly the same rpm... but the stock fan was being
driven at a fan pulley ratio of something like 1.72, and had to have been slipping a huge amount.
I'm only slightly disappointed in the output, it is roughly 8% down from the
mag fan with a stock pulley ratio, but the much better efficiency and lack of
pulsing seems to have made up for its lower output. I will post the hot data
for the stock fan in another post, and it will make the comparisons more clear.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 27, 2018 07:35PM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matt- does that mean we race interiors for pink slips?smiling smiley

========================================================

Sure!! I've got a few ladies pink slips that have been left here!! LOL!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 27, 2018 08:22PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 63turbo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Matt- does that mean we race interiors for pink
> slips?smiling smiley
>
> ==================================================
> ======
>
> Sure!! I've got a few ladies pink slips that have
> been left here!! LOL!

Good one!!


Here's some of the hot pressure data that I collected for the stock fan... keep in mind that it was actually being driven at a much taller than stock fan pulley ratio



1k .5 1k .6-.7 1k .7 these three groups are pretty representative
2k 2.3-2.6 2k 2.8 2k 2.4 of most of the hot data tests that I did.
3k 4.5-4.6 3k 5.33 3k 4.8 the pressures read seemed to have a lot to
4k 7.1 4k 8 4k 5.6 do with how tight the belt was and how hot
it actually got.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: May 27, 2018 08:25PM

Saw this on a beautiful vintage racer at > Joe's Corvair Garage < this week-end and it made me think of your fan.
Just needs a good bell on it. ggg
This was actually there to direct air straight in from a scoop on the rear deck.
Unfortunately, that scoop is situated directly behind the drivers seat!

.
-----------------------------------------------
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 28, 2018 08:46AM

Mel- that's pretty cool! Not knocking anybodys creativity or trying to be a stick in the mud, or necessarily promoting my fan, but ram air induction with the stock fan causes it to use a ridiculous amount of power... one experiment
that I heard of along those lines ended up SNAPPING the belt in half... not sure of the details on how that was done. With my fan, ducting air into the
inlet should actually cause the fan hp usage to drop and the flow to go up.
This same effect of lowering the hp usage and increasing the flow at the same
time would be greatly enhanced by ducting air into the inlet and also having the lower shrouds off.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 10, 2018 09:17PM

Special thanks to Matt Nall for his help getting this comparison of the efficiency's for my fan vs the mag fan and the 61-63 fan. Engine rpm is
the horizontal axis, efficiency on the vertical. Next weekend I am going
to be testing my new bell mouth and special airflow pulley, so as to see
if I cant boost the efficiency and output some more by making the intake
more efficient... I probably tested the least efficient intake shape first!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2018 09:23PM by 63turbo.

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: June 11, 2018 05:00AM

This is cool! It look slike you have finally improved on the OEM design. Much more efficient. If you could market this setup, I don;t see why people would continue to pursue the electric fan idea.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Oklahoma City, OK

Click for Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Forecast

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 11, 2018 07:18PM

Spectre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is cool! It look slike you have finally
> improved on the OEM design. Much more efficient.
> If you could market this setup, I don;t see why
> people would continue to pursue the electric fan
> idea.

Thanks David! I'm pretty sure that there's even more efficiency to be
had out of this fan based on where the efficiency is falling off... I guess
I will find out soon enough. I do plan on marketing (or at least trying tosmiling smiley)
once I see what it takes to get the efficiency up some more. I'm kind of hoping
that I can get most of the efficiency gain by changing only the pulley and that
the bell would be helpful for those that "want to get every last bit out of it"
as I think the market would be a lot bigger that way, because it really and truly is a strictly "bolt on" thing, no hacking the shroud. I cut mine only so
I could easily test different sizes of openings... much easier to take a big
hole and make it smaller by bolting on a smaller bell or necked down ring than
it is to try and take the darned shroud back off after the engine has been installed just to open it up!
You are right though, much of reason for wanting an E-drive pretty much goes
away. There are a couple of applications though where an E-drive, based on a fan like this could make some sense... Autocross and Drag racing, as both of those could benefit from an extremely fast warm-up and be able to cool the engine when it is not running, and/or spin the fan faster than it would be able
to be done with a belt drive that would otherwise be geared down a lot and idling.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: chris ()
Date: June 11, 2018 09:51PM

I'm subscribing to this. Very cool info and it's neat to see the creative thinking involved in this!

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 17, 2018 12:45PM

Right on Chris, thanks for tuning in!smileys with beer

Here's some pictures of my air flow pulley that I'm installing today, and a few
shots of the new bell set in place for test fitting. If you look at the fan closely, you can see dust patterns on it- the shiny areas are the regions of fast flow, as they have no dust, the dark regions are caused by dust and represent the slower flowing areas. Notice also how shiny and pointy the spot
directly under the pulley is and ask yourself how the air can even get there
without tipping the entire column nearly sideways just to shine up that spot,
and you will understand what this special pulley is attempting to address.
It doesn't exactly hurt that the pulley also increases the intake area a whopping 15%! we will just have to wait a little bit to see how altering the
intake airflow path in this manner works in real life!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



Attachments:


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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: June 17, 2018 01:41PM

Fascinating!
That is one "Wicked-Cool " fan! thumbs up
Am enjoying following this post.
Keep posting your progress.

.
-----------------------------------------------
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: kdrolt ()
Date: June 17, 2018 04:24PM

Too bad you didn't take instrumented measurements on the stock set up first: turkey roaster internal air pressure vs rpm, and CHT for each data point. Are you using the stock ratio of 1.58:1 ? The only useful surrogate hp measure I could think of was either roller dyno test at high rpm in a low gear, or ET in the same gear during an acceleration run from say 20 to 50 mph. The air mover efficiency and the unknown ratio make it hard to assess without some measured data. Also, have you measured the mass of the fans (stock, new) and a tougher one, the rotary inertia of both? FWIW GM used a very large elec motor to spin the fan during engine dyno tests so they knew accurately what the power draw was. If they ever wrote a tech memo on that, it would be useful for comparison. Thx for posting.

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 17, 2018 06:08PM

kdrolt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Too bad you didn't take instrumented measurements
> on the stock set up first: turkey roaster internal
> air pressure vs rpm, and CHT for each data point.

I have collected lots of pressure vs rpm data for the mag fan, both
hot and cold data, and most, but not all of those runs were done at standard
temperature and pressure. I will at some point be posting graphs of those
tests, it will be much easier to see how they compare. What I didn't know
at the time of those stock tests was that the pulley I was using had worn
enough to alter the diameter of the pulley... the top edge of the fan belt
sits .2" lower on that pulley than it does on a non worn one, both pulleys
have the same o.d. I found this out when testing the mag fan on my engine
right after installing the shrouds and everything, and discovered to my horror
that the mag fan wasn't showing the same pressure at the same rpm that it did
in my earlier "in car" tests. It did however produce pressure's at the same
rpms that are seen in the 140 tests. Trying to figure that out, I noticed that
there seemed to be a large difference in groove depth between the old pulley and the newer pulley I replaced it with. The change in diameter between those
2 pulleys is 8.8%... and that does explain the huge difference pressure, EXACTLY between my stock mag fan tests and the mag fan test on the newly rebuilt engine.
I am purposely staying away from trying to measure cht at each data point, there's way too many variables that can change that number that have ZERO to
with fan output and outdoor air temperature... fuel air ratio, engine load timing advance can change the head temps an enormous amount... it is not fair
for the stock fan nor my fan to compare the flow by using chts because for that
to be valid, each data point would need to be taken on the same engine, same exact fuel air ratio and same exact timing advance with the same exact grade of
fuel (among other things). Fortunately, I do have another tester that does have a exact copy of my
fan and has a full complete data logger that can do a much better job collecting that kind of information, and does have a LARGE variable speed dc motor that will be able to measure the hp usage of the fan much more accurately than I can. I don't know when those tests will be able to be done.


> Are you using the stock ratio of 1.58:1 ?

As far as I know, yes, as the belt sits down into the pulley exactly as
far as my stock pulley that was modified for use on my fan.
The easy way to get decent hp usage numbers is to set the belt purposely loose
and measure how much torque it takes to cause the belt to slip, then run the engine taking pressure and engine rpm numbers... the first pressure number that deviates low from what the fan laws would predict at that rpm, you've caught the belt slippage point. Now you predict what rpm the fan needed to be
spinning at (based on the last "good" point) to produce the pressure actually read, and once you do that you've found the exact, highest rpm possible for the fan to spin without slippage, and since the slip point was actually measured, you've got enough information to calculate the drive hp of the fan at that point. I know this is a crude method, but I was able to back check this
method on my stock fan tests because it was very easy to feel the engine "unload" at a certain rpm when the belt started to slip... I was able to predict what the usage ought to have been and it agreed with the stock usage data at the slip point.

> only useful surrogate hp measure I could think of
> was either roller dyno test at high rpm in a low
> gear, or ET in the same gear during an
> acceleration run from say 20 to 50 mph. The air
> mover efficiency and the unknown ratio make it
> hard to assess without some measured data. Also,
> have you measured the mass of the fans (stock,
> new) and a tougher one, the rotary inertia of
> both?

My fan, which is just a prototype weighs 2lbs, the stock fan
weighs 1.2 lbs... this kind of difference in weight would make any
sort of acceleration test make the stock fan look much better than it
actually is so is pretty much worthless at this point in time.


FWIW GM used a very large elec motor to spin
> the fan during engine dyno tests so they knew
> accurately what the power draw was. If they ever
> wrote a tech memo on that, it would be useful for
> comparison.

I have all the fan data for all the fans and engines, a friend of mine
sent this to me, they all come from the sae tests that were done.


Thx for posting.

Right on, thank you!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 17, 2018 08:14PM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fascinating!
> That is one "Wicked-Cool " fan! thumbs up
> Am enjoying following this post.
> Keep posting your progress.

Thanks Mel- I seriously appreciate the commentssmiling smiley- I am having a lot of fun
posting the tests, and I'm learning a lot about the real world factors that
affect the output of the fan as well as it's efficiency, as I'm sure many of you out there reading about this are also. One thing I would like to point out
that is different about this fan- the fan laws work perfectly on this fan, all the way from 1k out to 5k, vs all of the stock fan tests that I did, and all of the gm tests that I've looked at show lower pressures at 4k... they are ALL
basically off 1" at that engine rpm vs what is predicted from the fan laws... this is pattern shows up hot or cold, on any engine or fan, and still shows
up when all fans are tested on the same exact engine as was done in a fan
test posted in CORSA a few years ago... this is basically IMPOSSIBLE unless there's something in common for all of the fans. The only thing that I can think of that really is common to all is that they all have the same intake area, and the path into the fan is equally screwed up for all. For my first test with my new fan, the intake area was made 18% larger than stock by cutting the lip off of the shroud. This one thing increased the diameter of the opening from 8.125" to 8.63". The airflow pulley is going to add another
5 square inches to the already larger intake area. The flow loss intake theory
is starting to make some sense!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: June 18, 2018 01:21PM

So when can I buy one??? grinning smiley

Eric C. Player
Porterville, CA
- National Member, CORSA
- Member: Central Coast CORSA
- Former Member: Vintage CORSA Orange County & South Coast CORSA Los Angeles California Chapters. Member, ISA (Int. Screenwriter's Assn.), SAG Eligible, and Producer's Guild Aspirant


* Then: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red/1965 Monza 110 Purple/
1967 Monza 140 Red/1966 500 110 Black/1965 Monza 110 Yellow
* Now: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo Project. Blue, Blue/Beige interior.



"Chevrolet's Corvair was a maverick machine, a rear-engined renegade born out of spite and genius." -- Sports Car Graphic, August 1969

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Re: My New Fan!!
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 18, 2018 08:12PM

playerpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So when can I buy one??? grinning smiley

I don't know yet- I would like to wait until my other tester finishes his
tests, but I don't know when they will be done. Ideally, I would make changes
to the fan to get the sizing more in line with what I was after, and have a small run of those be available for sale to knowledgeable owners to do the testing that is going to be difficult for me to do. I want to get the efficiency up some more, as that most definitely affects the sizing and hp usage of the final deal. The basic idea for this fan was to be big enough to
properly cool a turbo, and everybody else would be able to run the fan geared
down a lot without losing any cooling/and or more cooling with a lot less power
usage. The fan would have a much wider audience and be more useful and adaptable that way... the mule drive always works better if the fan can be
spun slower in most cases, and the effect of the fan inertia is greatly diminished set up like that. Also, the cooling ends up being more effective as the fan is cooling the engine more by static pressure than by velocity pressure. Static pressure is the good stuff, as it is even and uniform and costs no power if no air is flowing... velocity pressure is the bad stuff because it is easily disturbed, and tends to get more uneven the more of it you have, and is more noisey.
Anyways, again I'm not sure when there will be fans available for sale, but I'm going to be doing my darnedest to keep this project from dragging on and on
for years like some fan projects that I've heard about!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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