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Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 01:36PM

Tried for the first time to put the Firebrier in gear, and immediately discovered a clutch problem. I'm somewhat familiar with noises when the clutch is fully engaged, but I'm not sure what would cause this: when fully engaged, there is no noise and everything seems fine. As I push on the pedal (the tension on the pedal feels normal) to disengage the clutch, a rattling/scrapping sound can be heard and the engine begins to slow. The audio of this video conveys the problem somewhat: the slowing of the engine is apparent although the rattling noise is less so.

Anyone run into this problem who can suggest what I'll find when I pull the engine look at the clutch; or better yet, offer a miracle cure that does not involve dropping the engine?

Thanks,
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: May 18, 2017 01:56PM

What is making the return spring oscillate?

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo 1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4 1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 02:04PM

Hi Steve,
Well, I'm not sure. I would think that some vibration of the spring is normal, but the clutch issue could be contributing to the vibration also.
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: kenvair ()
Date: May 18, 2017 02:48PM

Steve, do you have any pics of the bell housing bolted to the crankcase? The lower 4 long bolts do not use a flat washer as do the bolts around the seal area and this extra protrusion of the bolt head can sometimes contact the flywheel rivet heads due to the crank being pushed rearward on depressing the clutch. Ken Arnold

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 02:58PM

TO bearing on backward ? that engine slowing is odd

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:13PM

disconnect the cable and move the rod by hand. you wont be able to depress the pressure plate but should easily be able to feel it making contact. take the return spring off to during this.

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:25PM

Couldn't find a pic showing the bell housing bolts - that'll have to be something I check.

I'm 99.9% sure I have the TO bearing oriented correctly... but there is always a possibility...

Rod, When you say "should easily be able to feel it making contact", are you referring to the TO bearing?

Thanks All,
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:25PM

kenvair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Steve, do you have any pics of the bell housing
> bolted to the crankcase? The lower 4 long bolts do
> not use a flat washer as do the bolts around the
> seal area and this extra protrusion of the bolt
> head can sometimes contact the flywheel rivet
> heads due to the crank being pushed rearward on
> depressing the clutch. Ken Arnold


From the build thread it sounds like Ken Hand put the motor together. the lower bolts have got to be fine. if not they do machine themselves off fairly quickly.

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:34PM

yes you can move the rod that is attached to the fork by hand vary easily feeling if your issue is related to contact at the pressure plate or some other binding or fork issue. listen for anything weird .

not sure if you can get a mirror in the rectangular rod hole area by removing the dust cover to take a look at the components

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:53PM

The probability that I'm the cause of the problem is infinity higher than anything that Ken would have done.

I'll see what I can tell about the control arm.
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: May 18, 2017 03:56PM

I would yank the engine and take it apart, something is not correct and messing with it making noise like that is further destroying something.



Email me at: Dave Motohead

Sign my guest book!
[motoheadmall.com]
-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:20PM

Yeah, definitely the plan. So I did what Rod suggested, and with the engine running made this observation: when I pull on the control rod, nothing surprising happens, and obviously I can't pull enough to actually depress the pressure plate; HOWEVER, if I push on the control rod (push it toward the bell housing), I get a clattering noise. Should pushing on the control rod cause it to contact the pressure plate? Might it not be seated on the ball correctly?
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: Nickshu ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:34PM

Pushing on the control rod should move the TO bearing away from the pressure plate splines. If you did not get the TO bearing inside the spring steel fingers on the clutch fork/arm (or the splines broke off) it could act like that I would think.

Nick
_______________________________________________________________________
1964 Monza Spyder Convertible #435 - Rotisserie restored - Check out my restoration thread here: [corvaircenter.com]
Recreational Mechanic/CORSA Member/US Navy Veteran
Other cars: 2003 Porsche 996.2 Carrera; Boring daily drivers; Serpent Express 18' trailer; 2005 Lotus Elise supercharged (SOLD); 1982 Porsche 911SC (SOLD)
Northern Colorado, USA

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:37PM

I would sure want to look inside the clutch housing, Just to be sure everything is together. There is also a chance the fork is not engaged to the TO bearing or ball pivot. I've seen them pop apart during assembly.
Also, be sure you have the correct pressure plate to flywheel combo. That ones a real long shot, and I'm sure you do. But I like to check everything.

smileys with beer

Corventure Dave

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:41PM

ROD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kenvair Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Steve, do you have any pics of the bell
> housing
> > bolted to the crankcase? The lower 4 long bolts
> do
> > not use a flat washer as do the bolts around
> the
> > seal area and this extra protrusion of the bolt
> > head can sometimes contact the flywheel rivet
> > heads due to the crank being pushed rearward on
> > depressing the clutch. Ken Arnold
>
>
> From the build thread it sounds like Ken Hand put
> the motor together. the lower bolts have got to be
> fine. if not they do machine themselves off fairly
> quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks Rod, I was going to mention that I had built the engine, and yes, I know better than to put washers on the lower 4 bolts inside the bell housing. I also have to say that the flywheel is a very lightly used Dale unit.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:47PM

you pushed too far probably touched the fork on the PP. I would think it would be noticeable if the fork was cocked. let us know what you find and post pictures of your clutch components.

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:49PM

Will Do. The answer should come tomorrow.
Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: May 18, 2017 04:50PM

check the PP mounting bolt length too.

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 19, 2017 01:43PM

No smoking gun in the Bell Housing, but one possible explanation.

Here's the TO bearing and control rod:

Ken suggests I have too much grease on it, but the positioning looks OK, and This video shows the TO bearing and control arm movement, which also looks OK. I can see nothing wrong with the TO bearing, which rotates normally.

The pressure plate also looks OK:

No evident damage. A close up shows some scratches on the fingers,

but nothing to suggest anything other than contact with the TO bearing.

I removed and disassembled the pressure plate, and everything looks normal; nothing broken or loose. Confirmed I have an early style flywheel and early style (flat fingers) pressure plate. No protruding bolts.

However, the clutch disk makes a rattling noise when I tap on it (like the rivets are a little loose; and I remember reading once that the disk should have a solid tone when tapped. Might this be causing the rattling noise when I step on the clutch? A replacement is on the way. I'm still not sure if this might also be causing the engine to slow a little when the clutch is is pressed.

Steve

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Re: Help needed for Firebrier clutch problem
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: May 19, 2017 01:55PM

I read in past discussions, that the thickness of the clutch disc is critical. Did you measure your clutch disc?

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe, 180 hp 4 Spd
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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