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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: May 03, 2017 08:38PM

Mr.Vinnacombe:

Every car has a maximum practical speed, aerodynamically speaking. It would be interesting to hear your views on what mid-60s car had better aero.

In truth, the Corvair body has a respectable drag figure (about .38 or so as I recall), and was far more slippery than most of its contemporaries. No small part of that is due to its lack of air intake in its pointed nose.

Yes, it does get a tad light in front at speed, but its better than a C2 Vette. Of course, both are victims of GM's love of fashion over function and, at the time, a general ignorance of the many facets of vehicle aero. The vestigial air dam that appeared on the '65/'66 was a poorly designed token effort, tho it was still better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

With just a few informed tweaks, (nose down, good thoughtful air dam, and a bit of a spoiler (whose name is derived from the device's effect on the closing turbulance behind a car that tends to create horizontal suction, while adding a touch of downforce) on the tail) and one could equal the drag coefficient of most any new car today (luxo-bullets excepted, of course).

Some would say the LM Corvair was something of a high-point of design, both visually and functionally.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 03, 2017 09:03PM

I agree! gg





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: May 03, 2017 10:15PM

ensys Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mr.Vinnacombe:
>
> Every car has a maximum practical speed,
> aerodynamically speaking. It would be interesting

My point exactly
>
> In truth, the Corvair body has a respectable drag
> figure (about .38 or so as I recall), and was far
> more slippery than most of its contemporaries. No
> small part of that is due to its lack of air
> intake in its pointed nose.

The lack of air intake does not make it slippery. It changes the airflow, not the same as slippery.


> With just a few informed tweaks, (nose down, good
> thoughtful air dam, and a bit of a and one could equal the
> drag coefficient of most any new car today

Not likely. A Honda Civic has better airflow than the Corvair. Any Corvair.


I have not seen any empirical information that the Corvair had better aerodynamics than other cars of the era. Maybe but without good data, it's not reasonable to claim it. By that measure, a train has better aero than the Corvair. It's blunt and splits the air under and over it efficiently. It also has a huge motor to drive it forward. Speed does affect aerodynamics.

< spoiler (whose
> name is derived from the device's effect on the
> closing turbulance behind a car that tends to
> create horizontal suction, while adding a touch of
> downforce) on the tail)

I take issue with the statement that the spoiler on the rear of a car creates any downforce. The turbulence behind the car created by the thrashing of airflows from over, around and under, the car do create some small suction but the real culprit is the wing effect the body has at the rear of the car. A spoiler changes the airflow over the car, which simply makes the air flow higher over the rear of the car. That reduces LIFT, which in turn allows more of the cars weight to remain on the rear tires. The best are simple vertical appendages at the very rear of the car. Matt's is the correct idea.

I don't appreciate being cornered. Call me out at again your own peril.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: May 04, 2017 05:09AM

Quote
BobV66Vair
Speed does affect aerodynamics.
I completely agree (it's scientific fact). Aerodynamics revolve around speed. Depending upon the intended road speed of the car, a designer will be sure to incorporate a spoiler or wing, depending upon what the design of a body requires. F1 cars are designed for high speeds. They have front and rear wings which provide downforce- improving traction. Corvairs really weren't designed to go 200+ mph. It can be done, but you'll need to add both HP and make it more slippery and give it downforce. There is a reason Danny Thompson's 400 mph car looks like it does.

Read about spoilers here: [en.wikipedia.org])
Read about downforce here: [en.wikipedia.org]



-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 04, 2017 06:47AM

Here is a good picture of Danny Thompson's car on the salt.

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 04, 2017 07:01AM

But the baddest streamliner on the planet is Speed Demon.

The first wheel driven piston engine car to 500 miles an hour wins.

Pictured is the co-owner and driver George Poteet...bad ass old man.

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: May 04, 2017 10:28PM

Mr.Vinnacombe:

No corners here - all out in the open

>My point exactly

I'm pleased to see that there was some point afterall, even if is a restatement of the obvious.

>The lack of air intake does not make it slippery. It changes the airflow, not the same as slippery.

Well, some might call a pointed nose with no openings "slippery", but if you find comfort in wordplay, be my guest. The fact remains, however, that the greater percentage of frontal area that is given over to openings (and fake openings), the less efficient the air flow around and past the nose. Even the slight point in the nose improves the flow to either side and lessens the snow plow effect.

>Not likely. A Honda Civic has better airflow than the Corvair. Any Corvair.

Well, a bold statement, but I doubt the facts would bear you out there. Maybe you're confused by the fadish faux-wedge "styling".

Tho narrower by a little bit, the Civic's greater height renders their respective frontal areas close to equal, I would guess. And the flow of air begins with frontal area. Sadly, I don't have the Cd of a Civic at my fingertips.

>I have not seen any empirical information that the Corvair had better aerodynamics than other cars of the era. Maybe but without good data, it's not reasonable to claim it. By that measure, a train has better aero than the Corvair. It's blunt and splits the air under and over it efficiently. It also has a huge motor to drive it forward. Speed does affect aerodynamics.

I admire a fellow who doesn't let lack of information stand in the way of pronouncing "facts"... after all, it got Trump elected.

However, the locomotive bit is really intregueing; what measure would that be that calculates that a train has better aero than a Vair? That's really trippy.

>I take issue with the statement that the spoiler on the rear of a car creates any downforce. The turbulence behind the car created by the thrashing of airflows from over, around and under, the car do create some small suction but the real culprit is the wing effect the body has at the rear of the car. A spoiler changes the airflow over the car, which simply makes the air flow higher over the rear of the car. That reduces LIFT, which in turn allows more of the cars weight to remain on the rear tires. The best are simple vertical appendages at the very rear of the car. Matt's is the correct idea.

An interesting, if somewhat simplistic, view, to be sure. And while it's true that an inverted wing appendage is more efficient at the job of downforce, I'm sure the news that the suction effect is negligable and that no downforce (which is the reduction of "lift") is induced by a spoiler, regardless of configuration, will cause quite a stir among aerodynamicists everywhere. You should publish a paper on the subject.

And of course speed is a fundemental aspect of aerodynamics; at 10mph the subject is irrelevant (unless you're riding a bicycle). The faster you go, the greater the pressures induced by the movement of air around a moving object. That is why fast objects have the smallest possible frontal area and tails that try to resolve closing flows with the least possible turbulance, even when the "wing" effect of the object is negligable.

>Call me out at again your own peril.

Should I watch for a black SUV in front of the house?

Peace and love, Dude. We're just talking cars.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: May 05, 2017 03:35AM

And keep your politics out our forum, thank you. It is the forum rule. Might be time to revisit them.

Al Lane
Ellabell GA

1966 Monza Coupe, 110 hp, 4 Spd
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe, 180 hp 4 Spd
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe, 6 dr, 80 hp car engine, PG
2015 Chevrolet Malibu 2LT
2015 GMC Sierra SLT Crew Cab
1968 Camaro SS Coupe 350 CI 295+ HP PG
1947 Farmall A tractor 15 hp


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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Ed Dowds ()
Date: May 07, 2017 08:27AM

I have a Car & Driver article where they tested front and rear spoilers on a'69 Camaro. The front spoiler helped keep the front end down (measured downforce).
The rear spoiler actually caused the front end to lose some downforce and rise some, even with the front spoiler. There was measurable drag from the rear spoiler.

Their recommsndation was to just use the front spoiler.

Ed
Hillsborough, NJ
66 500 rear 4.3 V6 Corvair
69 350/350 TH Camaro was RS
30 Model A Ford Streetrod 350/400 TH
88 Celebrity Wagon (Daily Driver)

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: May 07, 2017 09:01AM

>> S.J.Szabo

I try to post information that will be interesting and useful to forum members. When someone posts snarky replies to my posts, I get offended. You have made it clear what your politics are although no one cares on this forum. You seem to be very opinionated in all areas. There is room for opinions on the forum, just not snark or trolling. I searched your posts and a majority are chastising or scolding of others posts. If you have information, present it. Don't bother to pick at what others have written. We don't need a class scold.

As for being at risk, you clearly have enough personal problems. I don't need to come after you. Nothing I can do will be worse than what you already live with.

Sorry forum members. This is my last post on this situation. Back to Corvairs!

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: May 07, 2017 09:28AM

Phil Dally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the baddest streamliner on the planet is Speed
> Demon.
>
> The first wheel driven piston engine car to 500
> miles an hour wins.


So interesting that the car looks like the Bell X1 with a flat bottom. The X1 was based on a .50 cal bullet, known to exceed the speed of sound. This car is really nice. Would have been something to be there when it made its run. Are people allowed to be close enough to the course to see/hear the high speed cars?

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 07, 2017 10:07AM

Landspeed racing is completely unique to motorsprts.

You can still build a racecar from the ground up.

With your own personal design and innovative ideas.

The only catch is lots and lots of safety rules.

Have you ever been to a landseed event as a spectator?

Never been to Bonneville...it is a bucket list item.

Only one place in the world that you can see up close.

Twin big block streamliners going by at 400+ mph.

Video is Burkland at 450+ mph...twin Hemi big blocks.

Speed Demon is a single twin turbo Duttweiler LS 400 cube.

I would put money on Speed Demon being first to 500 mph.


edit: redid the video below



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2017 10:14AM by Phil Dally.

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 07, 2017 10:10AM

Forgot to say pits are wide open with no spectator restrictions.

The 403 forbidden code wont let me post pictures...I have plenty.

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 07, 2017 10:13AM

Lets try that video again.

[youtu.be]

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 07, 2017 10:19AM

[youtu.be]


Ride with Speed Demon to 462 mph!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: May 07, 2017 05:11PM

Ed Dowds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a Car & Driver article where they tested
> front and rear spoilers on a'69 Camaro.

These are the same guys are that said the 69 and 70 Chrysler "winged" cars were good for nothing but slicing bologna.

'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 07, 2017 06:11PM

Wagon Master Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> These are the same guys are that said the 69 and
> 70 Chrysler "winged" cars were good for nothing
> but slicing bologna.
========================================================

On the street cars sold to the public that is true!

NASCAR users could adjust the angle!!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 08, 2017 04:19AM

Those twin hair dryers I spoke of.

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: May 08, 2017 06:57AM

> > These are the same guys are that said the 69
> and
> > 70 Chrysler "winged" cars were good for nothing
> > but slicing bologna.
> ==================================================
> ======
>
> On the street cars sold to the public that is too
> true!
>
> NASCAR users could adjust the angle!!


Fake News.
They were indeed adjustable, and weren't that tall to use the clean air off the roof either.


'64 Monza Coupe 140 4 speed
'61 700 Lakewood 95 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Delrin Fan?
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: May 08, 2017 07:50PM

All:

My abject apologies if I have breached forum etiquette. In my defense, I will note that the comparison drawn had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with pompous blowhards. I’ll try to be more clear and less controversial in the future.

Now then…

Mr.Vinnacombe, it would seem you have no small difficulty telling the difference between uninformed “opinions”, which are seldom “interesting and useful”, and knowledge. Sorry it bruises your ego to be “called out” for passing such opinion off as fact, but it goes with the territory and you should be used to it by now.

What is not so amusing is blatant bullying, however ineffectual. From the condescendingly unctuous replies, to the supercilious hollow threat, to the asinine attempts at character assassination, I think you’ve made it very clear just who has the serious problems playing nice with others.

You have my sympathy.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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