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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:35PM

So a traditional 555 is rated for a max output of 200ma.
Can I just use a transistor to increase the output to my required 1a (or less), or must I build a driver to do so?

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: ROD ()
Date: April 20, 2017 07:30PM

If you are still up for ideas :

Solar powered attic fan with wrecking yard parts.....

Hey I always wanted to build a rat trap out of a golf ball cannon so the rat crawls in the tube and next morning I can go outside and shoot him into space or at least the next few houses over.

Rod Tetrault
El Cajon , CA
65 Corsa Yenko Clone / 65 Corsa EO Creampuff Vert
66 Corsa "JIMISH" Mid engine Turbo LS1 currently 2nd fastest Corvair in the USA
Class 5 Corvair powered Baja
61 Vintage Rampy
Corvair powered Buggy x 3
Enough hidden parts to build a space ship

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: jmaechtlen ()
Date: April 20, 2017 09:04PM

a "driver pack" is a set of amplifiers, one channel per injector.
One of the right transistor per channel might be fine - 5000 rpm is less than 42 squirts per second per cylinder.

Fuel pump, etc - why would you buy new? Any crappy used efi pump that still runs would work fine.
Ditto the rest - get one or two used injectors off of a small 4-banger at the salvage yard. Probably too big, but good enough.

etc...

Jay Maechtlen
El Monte, Ca
Yes, it started out in life as a 61 2door.
It has a custom fiberglass skin, and a transverse 3.8 Buick.


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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: DAVECS1 ()
Date: April 21, 2017 05:38AM

If you can re-create Ted's system, that in itself would be a huge learning experience. Ted did not build anything new per say. He took a good selection of what was already available from mother GM and reconfigured it to work for his situation. The big parts like the throttle body and ecm, and ignition all exist in a thousand different forms and brands, many of them done well. The amazing pieces of engineering in Teds system are not the big things, but the stuff that goes unnoticed, in the harnessing, fuel system plumbing, and bracketing. Last but not least he was able to reprogram probably the least expensive most capable efi ecm to date to make it work for the corvair.

You could build Teds system for 300 dollars all day long. If you can just manage that you will have learned a great deal. EFI is not cheap, cause even if the parts are cheap, there is expense in learning the stuff to make it work.

1964 Monza Convertible
110 4 speed
Peoria, IL




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 05:39AM by DAVECS1.

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: DAVECS1 ()
Date: April 21, 2017 05:39AM

Double post

1964 Monza Convertible
110 4 speed
Peoria, IL




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2017 05:40AM by DAVECS1.

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: April 21, 2017 06:15AM

Another example of repurposed GM hardware. The magic here was to select a donor with the same engine specs as a Corvair so no programming required. Built in '99, the car still runs like a charm today... and it was a huge learning experience when I built it.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: Chilly Willy ()
Date: April 21, 2017 06:30AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another example of repurposed GM hardware. The
> magic here was to select a donor with the same
> engine specs as a Corvair so no programming
> required. Built in '99, the car still runs like a
> charm today... and it was a huge learning
> experience when I built it.

Nice and clean.looks like it belongs there 😎



Will
Northern California

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 21, 2017 08:10AM

I had also thought about adapting a newer gm system to work...

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: coleslaw31 ()
Date: April 21, 2017 08:53AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another example of repurposed GM hardware. The
> magic here was to select a donor with the same
> engine specs as a Corvair so no programming
> required. Built in '99, the car still runs like a
> charm today... and it was a huge learning
> experience when I built it.


I assume you have a thread on that? Man that's slick looking.

South Carolina Upstate



68 Monza convertible 140 4spd A/C (coming soon)
66 Corsa coupe 140 4spd

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: April 21, 2017 09:13AM

coleslaw31 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I assume you have a thread on that? Man that's slick looking.

Thanks!
Here's a link to the project (and others) Click here

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: April 21, 2017 09:46AM

vwbussman66 - Mechanical engineering is a big discipline as someone stated here.

An EFI project is a combination of mechanical and electrical knowledge, common now.

You'll do well if you learn BOTH disciplines. There was, and still is, a shortage of engineers that can handle both sides and integrate them.

Good luck with your project.

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: veverlove ()
Date: April 21, 2017 09:37PM

Craig - Just checked your link and that is one very clean installation on your Fiero EFI set-up. thumbs up

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: April 21, 2017 10:28PM

VwBUSMAN66 , James,
If you were able to re-plicate TED's system for the VOLKSWAGEN market, you could potentially make a little money from doing that.
There isn't anything in the VW aftermarket that compares with Ted's design.
There is the excellent VW of Mexico, stock Volkswagen efi system that is seen on 1994 and later Mexican bugs. It is a superb system that is purposely built for a bone stock 1.6 liter VW Beetle engine. It is simpler and better than the German Bosch system that was seen on the 1975 thru 1979 Beetles/Super Beetles/Super Beetle Convertibles that were sold in North America.
The MEXICAN efi VW system can be had piece-meal from Mexican citizen sellers on the web. It, like the seventies era BOSCH system on German Beetles, is NOT suitable to MODIFIED vw engines, but is GREAT on a stock dual port 1600 cc VW beetle engine.
The sad part is that the North American VOLKSWAGEN dealer network WILL NOT HELP IN ANY WAY SO THAT ONE COULD PURCHASE ORDER such VW parts. The VOLKSWAGEN dealership parts network views it as PARTS NOT ORIGINALLY SUPPLIED TO THE NORTH AMERICAN MARKET (usa/canada) AND THUS AS A MATTER OF RULE, WILL NOT SUPPLY, OR HELP OR PROVIDE ANY ASSISTANCE TO OBTAIN ANY NON-MARKET VOLKSWAGEN PARTS.
So unless one gathers enough parts or suitable available substitute parts from various FLAPS or boneyards here in USA, you might encounter difficulties trying to fit and use the MEXICAN VW efi system, as you can't get the parts outside of MEXICO, Mexican sources.
There would be sufficient demand in the VW community in the USA for a quality, simple BOLT-On system like TED's design only for a VW BEETLE engine! I would think that there would be huge demand for a KIT like TED's with the same approximate price point that Clark's has for Ted's BROWN system EFI / dis kit.
Sure, there are thousands of VeeDubbers that build their own EFI systems, but for every one of those that do build their own EFI system, there are probably twelve to twenty VeeDubbers that would simply want to place a Mastercard/Visa order and have the bolt-on Kit arrive in a box, four days after placing the Credit Card order. Thousands of VW folks bought new WEBER IDF and Dellorto carburettor kits for $400 to $500 (in 1983 dollars) from screwball Southern California VW Parts sellers that would only accept Money Orders in those days.
These screwball VW Parts sellers would then HOLD your money if their supply inventory was low, since they preferred to supply their local Walk-UP counter purchasers, and not having the WEBERS and Dellortos was bad for their local business. These sellers, and there were many, and just about all of them were horrible in this method of operation.... Still, despite all this, VW folks outside of SoCal and LA/Long Beach, would order WEBERS from these A-hole businesses because at that time it was the only way to get them without travelling to Europe(italy) on vacation. So you had to use those A-hole sellers that were classified advertisers in Hot VWs and VW Trends. Some folks got their paid for parts within 30 days and for others it might have been 90 days, and worse. Many of those businesses were in and out of business within a year or two. These were not quality VW parts suppliers like BERG who was excellent and had good customer service like Clarks and others in the Corvair field.
What I am saying is that Volkswagen people knew that they had to deal with these "Wild West" sellers but at that time demand was such for WEBER IDF and WEBER IDA and DELLORTOS that was the only way to get those. $450 thity five years ago probably equates to about $1600 in todays dollars.
My point here is this, despite the ability to copy the EFI do-it-yourself builds of other VW folk, most VEEDUBBERS would rather pay for a KIT in the box, ready to Bolt-On and go.
It has to do with TIME. You, Me, and Everybody else has only a 24 Hour Day. Time is money to most people, especially high earners and old farts like me and others. People make choices about how to allocate their time, in much the same way as they do with their money. One thing that you cannot buy is time. People have to sleep. Money never sleeps. For many folks it is most cost effective to simply pay the going rate for a superb well thought out kit.
What one might think is not within their budget, is not even a drop in the world's biggest bucket for others. Everything is relative to what one earns and/or has as disposable income. Once most folks are lucky enough to live long enough and amass enough (reach critical mass) to comfortably retire, time spent is much more important than money spent. Many aren't so fortunate but if you do make it and are able to not have much worries about spending, then why not choose to maximize your time as you see as best. You're worth it!
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be hands on and build it yourself, just as there ain't nothin' wrong with a buy it and have it shipped approach too.
IF THE PRODUCT IS OF SUCH HIGH QUALITY AND PRACTICALITY THAT IT IMPROVES THE OPERATION OF THE ENGINE, IT WILL GAIN THE ATTENTION OF BOTH the Empty Pockets Crowd and The Affluent Afford Anything Crowd.
When you have such a product that Super Low Cost from the near Empty Pockets person's perspective, you'll have a massive HIT, if the product continues to be produced. This assumes that the maker-seller has adequate profit margin from the sale of each that it is worth their time/money to remain an ongoing concern.

Do Not Lose sight of this TIME aspect when you feel like you've been busting your ass too long over the books til you're bleary eyed, in the campus library.... That "Chinese" math with the funky symbols and all the Calculus and such that you'll have to take in Engineering at University will tend to do that to every human that isn't an artificial robot.
My brother always tells everybody that he hated every *#!%@^ minute of his time in engineering school. He graduated(EE) with highest honors from Ga Tech.
He got a Masters from Ga Tech five years after that that was fully paid for by his employer, again he was an honor grad........he hated that too because he was watching the BETA/VHS tapes of the classes in his office on the 16th floor of his office building in downtown Atlanta every night. He really did love what he did for a career, he has been retired for almost a decade now. He has a full pension that pays him annually 80% of the average of the three highest salary years with the company.......not a bad deal. They also consider the years that he was CO-OP..ing as full years of service to the company. He was fortunate that he worked for the nation's premier electrical utility and the later the parent company's corporate office for his entire professional career and even during his CO-OP years as an 18yr old to 22 yr old undergrad.
I'd go and tease him back in the day when he was at TECH....about not having the time to see concerts across the street almost at the new OMNI coliseum, and the municipal auditorium and atlanta stadium back in the day before that. He did find the time to see Dylan/the band in 1/74 at the OMNI and he went with us to see The Who a month before that, but engineering school students, especially at top schools like Tech, have to devote a huge amount of time with the nose in the books. It ain't easy like LAW SCHOOL is.
Just make damn certain that you've taken everything (hs courses, not other stuff!!!) that will just get you acceptance into any of the many fine engineering institutions in this country. Be certain to ASK the recruiters that are visiting your high school about the CO-OP work programs for students in the engineering programs, if such programs still exist, because that will give you practical EXPERIENCE in your field for your RESUME at graduation time. You might also get a job-offer from the company(s) that you CO-OP'-ed for. Back in the seventies, the CO-OP was paid well, relative to the total cost of school(tuition,books,housing,having fun/dating/partying). The cost of college then was totally different as one could work their way thru school without incurring any debt to do so.
Just get in. There are always available scholarships/grants, other programs that can get you through. The most important thing is to realize immediately that getting that sheepskin is gonna help you tremendously in life. Most very intelligent young dumb-asses don't realize this and piss-away their chances by flunking out by drinking and partying because they see their friends that study Business Administration-Accounting-Finance-Management-Marketing can do that, or that Computer Science majors can do that too.... Yes, that is true.
Engineers hate it to no end that Business majors always end up being their bosses in every point in their careers. That is no bs, it tends to be that way, even though engineering school is far more challenging and difficult.
You gotta keep your eyes on the prize.
There are a huge number of great engineering schools, which the following few listed schools in no particular order, would be part of that huge number of schools: GA TECH, Vanderbilt, Michigan State, CLEMSON, PENN STATE, Stanford, Purdue, and many other institutions.
My sister's kid is 25 and has a Masters of Biomedical Engineering, and a Bachelors in Biomedical Engineering, both from Clemson University, has recently informed me that their name is on a patent application------works designing artificial replacement hips and knees for a leading company in that field.
Yes, the opportunities are tough to land but when you graduate with highest honors with 4.0 and have practical work experience in the field, the doors are far more open for you, and your salary level is gonna be surprisingly good!
You'll find that those hours spent studying and the hell going through each of those classes will be only something that you'll joke about after you're retired, wealthy and happy. You'll do great. The USA needs quality engineers and quality engineering. I am not joking, if you were to go to the graduation ceremonies at any top school like GA TECH for example, you'd see that more than half of the top class graduates are international students, who take their educational talents back to their home country and companies there. They then compete with all other companies worldwide. We have seen over the past fifty years, that Asian automobile manufacturers have had engineering excellence that has been far superior to what the Detroit big three have done. Many of those cats graduated from top engineering schools in the US. The failure was corporate mindset, almost like the fratboys at the State School that studies Bus Admin or Pol Scie/pre Law......they felt like they could sell ice to an Eskimo and quality design/engineering wasn't the most important issue.....lets get drunk now and not worry about it until tommorrow. It wasn't only the Auto industry which has now lessened the gap between Asian quality, the electronics industry was Destroyed by superior Japanese designs from about 1965 to 1970, such that most all American and European makers new products were 2nd rate obsolete that most companies disappeared almost over night-----Televisions, Radios, Hi-Fi STEREO systems, Tape Decks. SONY and MATSUSHITA(National and Panasonic , and later on, the TECHNICS brand) were the two single biggest reasons.
Just remember to keep it to yourself, at the workplace anyway, that Business Grads are dumbasses, because they even know that is true! They (Bus Grads) simply have the sales ability and the skills of of a successful politician that they can fool enough people along the way up. Part of the reason for that is a shoot for the sky optimism that is always there publicly, even if they privately feel that everything is really just a wing and a prayer, longshot at best.
Engineers just need to become FOS just like the business grads are, to move up like the bus. grads that achieved top positions within the company did.
Your future is so bright, you gotta probably wear shades!

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: April 21, 2017 10:42PM

There just doesn't seem to be anything left to say after all that!confused smiley ?



Email me at: Dave Motohead

Sign my guest book!
[motoheadmall.com]
-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: April 22, 2017 07:53AM

davemotohead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There just doesn't seem to be anything left to say
> after all that!confused smiley ?

Dave, you asked for it! grinning smiley

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process)
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: April 22, 2017 09:33AM

Couldn't resist...

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Warner Robins, GA (15 miles south of Macon)

Click for Warner Robins, GeorgiaForecast


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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: veverlove ()
Date: April 22, 2017 11:51AM

Dave, You did invite j3m to come out of his cave. Never mess with Trolls, if you don't want to smell their bad breath.

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: April 22, 2017 12:03PM

He would have showed up even if I did not invite him, all it takes is a mention of Carbs or Fool Injection and BAM! j3m.



Email me at: Dave Motohead

Sign my guest book!
[motoheadmall.com]
-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: April 22, 2017 12:15PM

You're my HERO Moto!!!

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Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 22, 2017 01:01PM

Thread drift....


ANYWHO...
I got home yesterday and was able to spend a few hours playing with some C++ on my laptop and had something pretty basic written up. I have an Arduino and some other basic electronic components, so I schemed out a small test. I was able to make a LED flash at a varied interval based on a value declared by a potentiometer.

I also was able to add a section of code to display an O2 sensor reading in mV on an LCD. I think my plan is to have everything be adjustable like a carburetor- set the AF ratio based on a user-set idle speed on the throttle body butterfly. Then, once they know what the correct value of the pot is, they can set that as the minimum idle with a collar attached to the butterfly shaft.

I was able to simulate opening a throttle body and increasing the fuel flow to the engine. My LED can only pulse so fast, so I will need to get a real injector and TPS to start figuring out what comes next. I think I am planning to have a single throttle body mounted above the fan, with an injector mounted in a manifold (made by me) for each cylinder bank. I am thinking of making something similar to the system below, with a TB instead of a baseplate and carb.



I am concerned that the Arduino will not be able to pulse fast enough at 6000RPM. Apparently, my UNO is rated for 16MHZ. I am going to order a few 555 chips (MOSFET and analog) along with some transistors and better potentiometers to see if I can use a non-programmable system to build all of this. The lack of code may make things easier.

I also have a list of some tentative costs for a full system:
Bosch O2 sensor- $12
Fuel pump- $76
Fuel pressure regulator- $76
555 timer- $0.48
LCD display- $7
TB- ???
Manifold- ???

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

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