Corvair DiagramCorvair Photo
Corvair Center
home forum corvairs calendar links Corvair Podcast
California Corvairs
Clarks Corvair
Clarks Corvair
“Performance
“CORSA"



Chevy Corvair License Plate
Chevy Corvair Chrome Wheel
Corvair Center Forum :  Corvair Center Phorum The fastest message board... ever.
Corvair Center 
Pages: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3
Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 19, 2017 06:34PM

See text posted on COG below:
"As many of you know, I am a junior in high school. I am pursuing a degree in mechanical engineering. A graduation requirement of my school is the completion of a senior project that is somehow STEM-related and relates to the field of study we are interested in. I am struggling to come up with project ideas that are car related. I have heavily pondered the idea of converting a diesel vehicle to run on WVO and building a simple but efficient filtration tank to accompany it. Does anyone have any ideas?"

CNicol suggested designing an EFI system. I had also been considering this as an option, although it will be difficult. I am considering using a basic microcontroller like an Arduino or Raspberry Pi. If I could have a complete setup for around $450, would there be a market for such a system? I am really hoping to come in around $300, but that may be too low depending on the costs of hardware. It will not have its own ignition system and will use the original distributor (or Seth's system). It will most likely be a continuous injection system with a rail on each cylinder bank. I haven't decided if I want to use a single throttle body, or two standard bases and RLP's linkage.

I am not trying to outsell the Brown EFI system- his is fantastic and well-built. I am just curious and poor.

I plan to start small with a 5hp B&S engine to get the code worked out, but after that, I can add more cylinders.

Any input?

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2017 09:31PM by MattNall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Affordable FI
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: April 19, 2017 06:40PM

j3m,,,paging j3m,,,,you are wanted on set! drinking smiley



Email me at: Dave Motohead

Sign my guest book!
[motoheadmall.com]
-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Affordable FI
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: April 19, 2017 07:39PM

The Briggs & Stratton to get started is a great idea.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Affordable FI
Posted by: chris ()
Date: April 19, 2017 08:24PM

I agree with Phil about the Briggs and Stratton since it's a simple engine. From my understanding though, the Pi and possibly the Arduino aren't capable of doing real time monitoring for something like fuel injection. However, don't let that dissuade you, as people probably said you couldn't put an engine in the rear of a car.

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 19, 2017 09:56PM

I would think the 5 hp conversion will suffice for your project requirements...you design and MAKE all the mechanical parts.

I have a "paper" published by the ASME....so a physical project has to be more than adequate to your High School.

I would think a kit for the small hp engines might be marketable...


As far as the Vair Tedd's system is very affordable, even to the rumored "low Buck Vair owners".. just a matter of what they want / feel they need...

Even at $300 I wouldn't be interested... I like carburation..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..................................PG........................................................Turbo

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Affordable FI
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: April 20, 2017 05:46AM

chris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Phil about the Briggs and Stratton
> since it's a simple engine. From my understanding
> though, the Pi and possibly the Arduino aren't
> capable of doing real time monitoring for
> something like fuel injection. However, don't let
> that dissuade you, as people probably said you
> couldn't put an engine in the rear of a car.

I hate to disagree, but the Arduino Mega2560 is capable of handling fuel injection and ignition.
One such setup is the Speeduino. Here are some links.

Wiki: [speeduino.com]

Forum: [speeduino.com]

Feature list from the Wiki page:

What you will get is flexible and configurable fuel and ignition management that will work for the majority of every day type setups. Currently supported features include:

16x16 3D fuel and ignition maps, with base of either TPS (Alpha-N) or MAP (Speed Density)
Supports up to 8 cylinders fuel and ignition with 4 channels of fuel and 4 channels of ignition outputs 1, 2 (Even fire only), 3 and 4 cylinder engines with full sequential fuel and ignition
6 (even fire only) and 8 cylinder engines are supported with wasted spark and 2 squirts per cycle

6x6 3D individual cylinder trim on engines up to 4 cylinders
After Start Enrichment
Rev limiting (Spark based, hard and soft)
Cranking specific enrichment, dwell timing and advance
General logging through TunerStudio
High speed tooth logging
TPS calibration through TunerStudio
Sensor calibration through TunerStudio (Coolant, IAT and O2)
Warm Up Enrichment (WUE)
TPS based acceleration enrichment
Tacho output
Fuel pump activation/deactivation (With priming)
Over dwell and over duty protection
Battery voltage compensation for dwell and injectors
Modular wheel decoder support. Included decoders: Missing tooth (Eg 36-1, 60-2 etc)
Dual wheel (Evenly spaced teeth on crank, single tooth on cam)
Basic distributor
GM 7X
GM 24X
4g63 aka 4/2
'Jeep 2000'
Audi 135
Miata 99-05
Honda D17 (12+1)
Nissan 360
Subaru 6/7
Taking requests...

Open and closed loop idle control (PWM and Stepper)
Closed loop boost control
Open loop VVT control
Deceleration fuel cut off (DFCO)
Launch control
Flex fuel
O2 based autotune (Registered version of TunerStudio required)


Soldering is required since no assembled "shield" is available.

This system can be used on anything from 1 cylinder to a V8.
TBI to MPFI
Distributor to EDIS.

This system is not a Megasquirt clone.
Speeduino uses TunerStudio which is not associated with Megasquirt,
they just happen to use the same tuning software.

Hope this helps.

Good luck on your Senior Project.

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:10AM

You will be a great mechanical engineer if you do indeed pursue the BSME degree.

Here is Craig's EFI from 2.8 Fiero adapted to the Corvair:
[autoxer.skiblack.com]


You mention possibly wanting to consider using CIS (Bosch K Jetronic)
[www.n56ml.com]
[www.thesamba.com]
[www.youtube.com]
[www.mikegabriel.net]

The old DATSUN (Nissan) 280z had a license version of BOSCH L Jetronic
[en.wikipedia.org]
As seen in the 1986 CORSA TECH GUIDE, the Datsun efi adaptation to Corvair
designed by Milt Binon successfully put that 280Z efi on a CORVAIR engine.
[www.demo.cs.brandeis.edu]
[atlanticz.ca]
WELL PERHAPS THIS IS AN ANCIENT EFI SYSTEM THAT DOES NOT OFFER ANY ADJUSTABILITY OR "TUNEABILTY" AS more modern Computer Programmable efi Systems, BUT Mega Squirt and CREATIVE MacGyvering of wiring the injector wires that fed to the Original ECU, to the MegaSquirt controller instead. Essentially you're modernizing the system with MegaSquirt so that it is more "MODERN".
There are thousands of old 280Z parts cars. You do have something of a roadmap with that BINON design detailed back in the eighties in the Corsa Communique, and then re-printed in the 1986 CORSA TECH Guide. Then you modernize it somewhat, with possibly Ford EDIS , and crank trigger wheel, and the MegaSquirt becomes the "New Brain" for that old DATSUN ( L Jetronic ) system.
Yeah, you'll be on your own from programming it for Corvair. The bone stock Original DATSUN ( L Jetronic) efi set-up as adapted by Milt Binon did function very well on the Corvair. One would think that it might not be too terribly difficult to MegaSquirt the DATSUN system in the same way that a mid to late seventies 280z owner does with MegaSquirt.
In fact, many folks with old DUMB EFI systems, have done the MEGASQUIRT Conversion. It is extremely "Cheap" (INEXPENSIVE), but it does require an attitude of being willing to spend the many hours necessary to do-it-yourself TUNING to get it to the original equipment capability, and then hopefully better, but at least in no ways any worse than the OEM unmodified dumb L Jet system.
Hey, here is another approach that a DATSUN Z car owner took to MODERNIZE their car's efi system. This person took a HESCO jeep EFI conversion kit and adapted it to their 280z, so that it gave their car an update to 1994 GM OBD1 fuel injection. [forums.hybridz.org]

The point here is to show that it is possible to do it "el cheapo" from multiple different approaches! THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS THE ROUTE THAT ONE SHOULD PROCEED WITH! This ain't an approach for most folks, unless you were competing on the old tv show, "JUNKYARD WARS" or something...
It does give some perspective for LEARNING by seeing various 'possible' approaches to build a rock bottom priced system that works for your car.
There are thousands of examples where mainly for cost reasons that folks MEGASQUIRT their cars. (high cost for the rare hard to find/unavailable parts on the original system)
*****there is much that can be learned by reading as much as possible on how others did what they did and why they did what they did*************
[www.diyautotune.com]
[www.zeebuck.com]
[www.reddit.com]
[www.reddit.com]
[www.desertdatsuns.com]
[www.classiczcars.com]

[corvaircenter.com]

[www.youtube.com]

Chuck Riblett's MegaSquirt dual throttlebody design:
( scroll down to page 3 )
[www.rockymountaincorsa.com]

[www.absolutetops.com]
[www.corvair.ca]
[www.americanflat6.com]
[www.msextra.com]
[www.gearhead-efi.com]
[autoxer.skiblack.com]
[www.corvairforum.com]
[www.corvairnut.com]
[www.corvairefi.com]

These are just a few of the EFI links that you should see again. You will also want to SEARCH all over the Worldwide WEb for anything that may help your design in the slightest way!
By now it everyone who has read this far and visited the links and read those as well, that the EFI system that CLARKS sells is a bargain.
HOWEVER, JUST AS ALMOST ALWAYS, IF IT WASN'T FOR THE PIONEERS THAT BLAZED THEIR OWN TRAIL BY DESIGNING THEIR OWN, THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE INNOVATION AND ADVANCEMENT IN THE AREA OF efi for The Corvair.
********There Is Always Another Way that perhaps it can be done!
IF ALL OF THE PREVIOUS Folks Had LISTENED To All The PEOPLE SAYING IT CAN'T BE DONE, you would never have seen any improvement in any area related to the Corvair. There is more stuff to choose from in the junkyards and FLAPS and other parts sources. With ebay and the web, you can scrounge parts and get them shipped to your doorstep. Years ago, one might have been limited to junkyards within 75 mile driving distance of their home. Years ago, you didn't have the ability to see how Bubba or Skeeter designed their set-up because they both lived thousands of miles away in different parts of the USA. It had to be featured in a magazine article, and though detailed is very limited compared to certain detailed web how to build posts on forums and webpages. You can see how folks in other countries do their builds and the ability to communicate with these folks across the world wasn't possible thirty years ago before the WEB.
You can also easily find and access almost any small and lightweight part from any location on earth.
It is amazing just how helpful such a tip or posting by someone 3000 miles away across the country just saying that ROCKAUTO carries the part for $6 or giving a part number for an acceptable substitute, or whatever...
Research, ask questions, contact the designers and make use of their knowledge. You might see a way to do it differently. You are probably alot smarter than you realize. Don't try to reinvent the wheel to only have a poor substitute for another better system. Be Resourceful and scrounge and modify but do so rationally with respect to cost and probable outcome.
Like the old saying, "If You Can't Beat Them, then Join 'em " (meaning: Copy them! you might see ways that you can slightly improve upon it. )

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Affordable FI
Posted by: cepak ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:41AM

I agree with wv-geo, the Arduino Mega2560 is fully capable of handling a project
like this. If you are limiting your Senior project to the Briggs & Stratton
engine, then I think this is a doable senior project. Just be careful and not
bite off more than you can chew. I've been writing software for over 35 years,
and without careful planning and limiting the scope of your project, you may not
finish by the end of your senior year. I'm not saying you aren't capable, but
during your senior year you'll have all kinds of other classes and activities
going on, and you'll find yourself under a time crunch (My daughter was a Senior
last year and she barely got her computer science senior project completed in
time, and she's not a procrastinator). Just listing a few of the sensors you may
or may not need for your project (throttle position sensor, O2 sensor, measured
atmospheric pressure sensor, air temperature sensor, mass airflow sensor, head
temperature sensor, and knock sensor), you'll have to write code to handle the
ones you are going to use, along with reference tables and fuel and ignition maps
just to name a few. If you are not careful, you could create a daunting task for
yourself.

Just my opinion.

Tom Cepak

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: April 20, 2017 07:02AM

If you need a low cost wideband O2 controller and sensor, check out this website:

[www.14point7.com]

SLC Free if you can solder. $95 with display.

Spartan 2 if you can't. $125 without display.

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: April 20, 2017 09:24AM

You could also try to super charge it with a big block smog pump. Fun

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 20, 2017 10:59AM

Thank you all for your response! When I get to the hotel tonight, I will read all of this thoroughly and compose a response to each with further questions.

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: April 20, 2017 11:20AM

As you are doing your cost calculations, don't forget that you need an output driver pack. The 40ma output current max on an Arduino won't run injectors directly. Injectors require around 600ma or more.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe project
65 White 4-dr 110/AC/PG (parts)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+18 Tons of parts

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: wv-geo ()
Date: April 20, 2017 12:18PM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As you are doing your cost calculations, don't
> forget that you need an output driver pack. The
> 40ma output current max on an Arduino won't run
> injectors directly. Injectors require around 600ma
> or more.

The Speeduino uses an Arduino Mega2560 attached to a "shield" that has
all of the inputs and outputs wired to it.

Dan Stark
Hurricane, WV

1961 Lakewood 500, 80HP, PG
1964 Corvair 500 Coupe, 140HP, 4spd (Christine)
1965 Mustang Coupe, 6cyl, 3spd

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: glivorsi ()
Date: April 20, 2017 12:56PM

Not to rain on your parade, but as another poster has said don't bite off more than you can chew. Mechanical Engineering is an incredibly broad field. Ask me how I know! We know energy conversion, machine design, fluid mechanics, mechanics of materials, materials sciences, control systems, and even some electrical and chemistry. Automobiles are really a tiny fraction of mechanical engineering and chances are you won't end up working for an auto company. And even if you did, you might find out it's not the panacea you thought it would be. It's incredibly cutthroat and competitive. Ask me again how I know! Personally, I would try some alternative energy project- home made wind powered generator, solar power, etc.

Greg in Wildwood, MO (part of the St. Louis urban sprawl)

1965 Monza Vert 110PG, Crocus Yellow with black interior and top

2006 Mazdaspeed 6
1997 Honda CBR1100XX

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 20, 2017 01:05PM

This is a High School project!! Even "interning" is several years away.

I imagine this is just like "Auto Shop" was in the 60's

By the end of the 1st year / 2nd semester, you had to bring in a car and do something fairly major to it... to show what you had learned, and that you had the mechanical Aptitude to do it.





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..................................PG........................................................Turbo

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: April 20, 2017 03:24PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would think the 5 hp conversion will suffice
> for your project requirements...you design and
> MAKE all the mechanical parts.
>
> I have a "paper" published by the ASME....so a
> physical project has to be more than adequate
> to your High School.
>
> I would think a kit for the small hp engines
> might be marketable...
>
>
> As far as the Vair Tedd's system is very
> affordable, even to the rumored "low Buck Vair
> owners".. just a matter of what they want / feel
> they need...
>
> Even at $300 I wouldn't be interested... I like
> carburation..
I'm on the other end, don't really like working on carbs but also generally hot rod on the cheap and fuel injection though looks good to me I look at what it cost then look at the other things I want and end up staying with carbs. $300 would make it very tempting.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 20, 2017 05:58PM

Wv-Geo: Thank you for the link to the sensors- they will be very useful! I am hoping to create something that is slightly more basic than what Speeduino offers, though I have read some of his stuff and watched videos of it- very impressive!

Matt: I have no grievances with Vair Tedd's system- it is well built and very well setup. I think the appeal of something like this is pointed towards someone who might not be ready to take the $1600 dive yet.

Tom: I am not 100% sold on programming all of this yet. I have the fortune of two very good teachers who are very competent programmers and electronics who have offered to help me with this in any way they can.

While spending 10 hours in the car driving, I was doing some thinking. What if instead of using a microcontroller, I just used a 555 timer chip. I watched this guys video (see below). If I use an O2 sensor to set the correct pulse width (A/F ratio), and then use that resistance off of a potentiometer to calculate the correct resistors to use (or leave the pot in place to make slight adjustments). After this, I could then figure out a way to trigger the circuit off of a tachometer-like signal to make sure as the engine speeds up, the injectors fire faster as well.



-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:09PM

The 555 chip is an interesting idea. While it might not be optimal, it might run if it could react fast enough.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Warner Robins, GA (15 miles south of Macon)

Click for Warner Robins, GeorgiaForecast


Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: Scott V ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:09PM

moomba32 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm on the other end, don't really like working on
> carbs but also generally hot rod on the cheap and
> fuel injection though looks good to me I look at
> what it cost then look at the other things I want
> and end up staying with carbs. $300 would make it
> very tempting.

$300 would be very tempting.

a good fuel pump/fuel filter/pressure regulator/& injectors would be something like $300......at least.

$300 for everything will be hard to do. youll need to get stuff from wrecking yards or friends.....low cost or free.....to do it all for $300.

-Scott V.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Super low cost FI?
Posted by: vwbusman66 ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:22PM

I think I lowballed myself a little bit at $300- I fear you are correct.
I did say in my original post $450, though $300 would be optimal.
I guess I need to see how things play out.
James

-------------
James Keller
Kingsville, MD (21087)
1966 Monza Convertible-- originally 110/3 speed now SMOG 110/3 speed

Options: ReplyQuote
Pages: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.