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Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: April 18, 2017 11:01AM

Looking at this photo I see the car does have a bit of body roll, I'm looking for some suggestions from the experts on handling mods. I'm thinking of adjusting the rear camber a bit to help that tire sit flatter on the pavement, good idea? Other suggestions I've had àre lower the rear, add rear sway bar and install larger front bar. What will help leave the inside tire on the ground, doesn't look like it's doing much for me in this turn.

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: April 18, 2017 11:07AM

All of the above. If you autox the car, give it some added suspension. Others, like those who are very experienced racers, can give you a step by step to see what works.

I suspect that changing the camber may help but only if you adjust it to the maximum on both wheels. That can be done at the race site or at home the day before. Not really a difficult process. Just mark where you want it to live for the street so you can return it after racing. A very small dimple with a punch can make good marks.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 18, 2017 11:14AM

I say larger Anti-Swaybar up front..

I don't see any lifting.... I see bodyroll





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: 66cv8 ()
Date: April 19, 2017 06:56AM

Looks good to me, decent weight transfer and I'm guessing you still have adhesion.
I've seen many a race car daylight the front inside wheel.

Joe

66 500 Crown 350/4 on road
66 Corsa Convertible 140/4 rough
69 Monza Convertible 140/4 in progress (original 95/3)
Nu Joisey

" A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING"

"STUPID is the NEW SMART"

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: April 19, 2017 07:04AM


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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: JamesD ()
Date: April 19, 2017 07:25AM

I've had that issue.



James Deplorable
'65 Corsa 4-speed, '65 Corsa V8                                                       Santa Clarita, CA.
“I may not always drive a car, but when I do, I prefer a Corvair.  Stay loose, my friends.”

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: stabac ()
Date: April 19, 2017 09:06AM

Shades of Ralph Nader----- That's scary looking Jameseye popping smiley

Frank
Just Enough Knowledge To Get Myself In Trouble
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
1963 SPYDER TURBO CPE
Grandson #2


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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: TxCoyote ()
Date: April 19, 2017 10:07AM

It is supposed to lift the inside front in hard turns.

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: JerryM ()
Date: April 19, 2017 10:32AM

Doesn't look too bad.
Yes to the front bar, no to the rear.
Looks a little light on the inside rear: might be OK for what you're doing.
Add a Z bar to the rear

Jerry - Placerville California

'63 Monza Cp. 102/ PG
'64 Rampside 140/4spd
'65 Monza Ct. 140/4spd.
'66 Corsa Cp. 140/4spd.
'57 Corvette 469C/685



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2017 10:33AM by JerryM.

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: moomba32 ()
Date: April 19, 2017 07:03PM

Thanks guys, I value the input. Did look like James took an interesting ride, hit that bump on the apron?

Don Marlowe
66 Monza 2Dr 140/pg
64 Spyder convertible now, 110/pg
Eutawville SC

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: April 19, 2017 11:01PM

Computer game

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: 4carbcorvair ()
Date: April 20, 2017 05:41AM

If it doesn't lift, you are not going fast enough. grinning smiley

--------------------------------
Ronnie
Southern Maine.
[www.dirigocorvairs.com]
66 Corsa Convertible, 140, 4sp.
65 Monza Convertible, 110, PG.




It doesn't leak, it's marking it's territory.

A mirror is a reflection of the miles travelled.

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: April 20, 2017 06:10AM

Even my Vert would do it with the weights still in place. This was especially true during hill climbs with tight uphill turns.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: TomW ()
Date: April 22, 2017 07:43PM

If the inside/front wheel is close to "lifting" in the corner,
it's not contributing any cornering force anyway.

Let it lift. (Looks kinda cool too!)

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: April 23, 2017 07:10PM

I know everyone says that tire lifting is supposed to happen but it doesn't have to! My Blue race car got light on the inside tire but NEVER came off the ground! I have lots of pictures showing that point.

Now to the point in the picture above, part of that is the alignment specs. Forget the factory numbers. They are for someone that is going to load the trunk to capacity and drive and still have the steering in spec. I think the picture below was taken at the last Chicago convention. It s a stock 65 110 auto. Yes I worked on the alignment specs until I was satisfied, that car would 4 wheel drift and not over or under steer. Lots of body roll but I don't think a tire is off the ground!



Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: Jonathan Knapp ()
Date: April 23, 2017 11:55PM

I do not agree with those who say to put on a heavier front anti-sway bar. A heavier front bar will transfer more weight to the outside wheel, making it more likely to lift the inside wheel. Transfering more weight to the outside front wheel will just make the car push more. My experience, contrary to some, shows that your initial instincts are correct. You want both tires on the ground for maximum cornering force.

I would work to get the car lower. And I would experiment with stiffer springs. It looks like your rear tires are bigger than your fronts, so a rear anti-sway bar (not too big) is not out of the question. Your point about camber is well taken, but the stock Corvair suspension geometry is so bad, that there are limited (though real) gains to be had from negative static camber. I wouldn't go beyond -1.5 to -2 degrees in the back and -1 in the front. You have to redesign both the front and the rear suspension for appropriate camber change throughout suspension travel.

The biggest cornering improvement you can make to an autocross Corvair (next to superior tires) is to remake you steering arms for better Ackerman. The stock Corvair steering arms make the two front tires work against each other instead of with each other. The outside wheel turns sharper than the inside one -- the opposite of what should happen. Once the Ackerman is fixed, a little bit of toe-out (1/8") at the front will help initial turn-in at the beginning of a corner. I would keep the rear toed in. With its weight bias, the Corvair doesn't need any more help oversteering.

Body roll (within reason) is not your enemy. For autocross the goal is to keep all four tires firmly and flat (geometry modifications required) on the ground, all pulling together. See the picture of my car. It is pulling about 1.2g and all four tires are contributing.

Jonathan Knapp
Seattle, WA
'66 Corsa Autocrosser

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: April 24, 2017 07:44AM

Jonathan, I disagree about the roll bars. In my blue race car I had an 1 1/8" front and a 3/4 rear! It also had the HD Corvair springs cut one coil. Even then there was still body roll. Body roll is not the issue as you and I said. The camber specs you mentioned are in the range of what I recommend for street cars. Tire width/aspect ratio sort of dictates how much you can have/need. As far as toe out, never for a street driven car and never for the rear. On my race cars I keep about 1/4" total toe in on the rear and either 0 or 1/8" on the front. That still makes for a little twitchy under hard braking from 100 mph. Keep in mind what "Ackerman" angle is and what it does. The inside tire turns a shorter radius than the outside tire and therefore really needs to turn tighter than the outside wheel does. The quick steering arms really make this worse as you know by all the complaints of the parking lot squeal.




Same corner different time.



Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: hardcase ()
Date: April 24, 2017 07:55AM

Not an autoxer, but I am an engineer, so the observation that I have is that if the front inside corner is lifting, then the rear outside corner ought to be low. Sort of like the wedge adjustment in NASCAR. So would you want a stiffer rear spring, swaybar, or perhaps some preload on the rear springs?

Drew D.
Meridian, Idaho
------------------------
1964 PG Monza
1961 Dodge D100
2013 Camaro SS
2013 Honda Civic Hybrid (it offsets the Camaro, right?)

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: April 24, 2017 09:03AM

Jonathan, what steering arm modifications are you referring to so you get proper Ackerman on the car? I have been agonizing about what combination of steering gear and arms to run on my 66 race car. Is it different for a track car and an AutoX car? I would think the AutoX wants very quick steering at low speeds while the track car wants something that won't get too twitchy to control at top speeds and hard braking. I have an almost completed front end with standard arms and a Flaming River quick box. Now I am thinking about building a second front end just for AutoX.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Inside tire lifting in turn.
Posted by: dingo50 ()
Date: April 25, 2017 09:24AM

Poor mans Porche.

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