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Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: February 05, 2017 02:34PM

Finished installing the Devils Own Stage 1 (boost controlled) alcohol/water injection system.

Devils Own typically supplies two different sized micro injection nozzles so that you can tune the amount of injected fluid. Single nozzles are typically placed on/near turbo outlet but my specific install would be different. The install places one nozzle at the base of each manifold/head flange (same location as gauge & pressure retard fitting). Both heads on my engine were tapped on front and back sides so I re-routed the gauge line and wastegate line to free up each of the rear facing ports.

The battery was already in the trunk so I removed the battery tray and used a raised floor platform to bolt the pump, relay and pressure switch. Switch is set to turn on pump & solenoid at 6.5-7psi. Test drive today was pleasantly uneventful thumbs up with just a bit of leaking at solenoid input fitting (it was not quite snugged down enuf).

Want to add an indicator light to tell me when system is activated. Thinking of using a dash light mounted in place of the lighter (nice and big incan bulb).



Ken
'62 Spyder cpe - '63 Monza convertible
Florida

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: jetcat ()
Date: February 05, 2017 03:42PM

This setup is very interesting to me. I have a stock setup (LM 180 Turbo) but on a hot day (100+ degrees) going up a steep grade I must be very careful not to go into detonation. I use a octane booster to alleviate the problem but it's very expensive and not necessary during normal driving conditions. Plus, it is not really environmentally friendly 😉.
Can you describe the rest of your setup?

Bob
Paso Robles, CA
1966 Turbo Corsa convertible
1966 Corsa 140 coupe

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: February 05, 2017 07:47PM

kmart356 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Finished installing the Devils Own Stage 1 (boost
> controlled) alcohol/water injection system.
>
> Devils Own typically supplies two different sized
> micro injection nozzles so that you can tune the
> amount of injected fluid. Single nozzles are
> typically placed on/near turbo outlet but my
> specific install would be different. The install
> places one nozzle at the base of each
> manifold/head flange (same location as gauge &
> pressure retard fitting). Both heads on my engine
> were tapped on front and back sides so I re-routed
> the gauge line and wastegate line to free up each
> of the rear facing ports.
>
> The battery was already in the trunk so I removed
> the battery tray and used a raised floor platform
> to bolt the pump, relay and pressure switch.
> Switch is set to turn on pump & solenoid at
> 6.5-7psi. Test drive today was pleasantly
> uneventful thumbs up with just a bit of leaking at
> solenoid input fitting (it was not quite snugged
> down enuf).
>
> Want to add an indicator light to tell me when
> system is activated. Thinking of using a dash
> light mounted in place of the lighter (nice and
> big incan bulb).
>
> [i1057.photobucket.com]
> 962%20Corvair%20Monza%20Spyder/DevilSown%20system_
> web_zpspxdgxhmw.jpg


IMO, you'll have better charge cooling by installing a single nozzle at the compressor outlet. As it is, your nozzles are in the head, which gets 350 plus degrees, so, you're heating up the water quite a bit, lessening your charge cooling. Putting a single nozzle at the outlet will cool the charge, intake crossover and the turbo outlet. The turbo only gets real hot when making boost. The head is always hot. The stock turbo is pretty inefficient, and basically boils the gas as it hits the compressor blades. The nozzles at the head are getting the water probably as hot as when using an old style windshield washer or boost pressure type water injection system, which puts the water directly into those compressor blades.

The high psi systems are superior to the old style, and you'll have better results moving that nozzle. I was stunned at how relatively cool the crossover stayed, and the outketvwould no longer boil water after a hard run. You'll be glad you made the change. Good luck, looks like a fun car!

Rocco

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: February 05, 2017 07:58PM

I have a single nozzle tapped into the discharge of the turbocharger on my Corsa. It has been working great going on 4 years now.
I would not use the plastic lines on a Corvair. Alcohol is flammable and if for some reason the line leaks it could ignite on the turbine housing. Devil's own will make custom stainless lines with crimped ends. I did that on my car.

Lee J

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: February 06, 2017 07:42AM

jetcat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This setup is very interesting to me. I have a stock setup (LM 180 Turbo) but on a hot day (100+degrees) going up a steep grade I must be very
> careful not to go into detonation. I use a octane booster to alleviate the problem but it's very expensive and not necessary during normal driving
> conditions. Plus, it is not really environmentally friendly 😉. Can you describe the rest of your setup?

jetcat- I don't have too many steep grades (in Florida), but it does get hot and stays hot for 10 months or so. The engine set up is LM block - 95hp heads - E/B turbo - Stromberg 2bbl downdraft on custom manifold. Ignition is custom 18deg advance distributor - Dale A/R unit - Safeguard with knock retard and boost retard (when needed). Boost is controlled by manual boost controller in-line with an Ultra-Gate38 waste gate.
The objective with this H2O-alcohol injection system is to lessen boost induced knock so that I can back off the Safeguard settings and push up on the timing/boost settings. Boost is addictive but don't want to mess up a solid running turbo engine.smoking smiley

Thanks for the recommendations guys, I will sort the system out and incorporate as needed. 1st thing I want to add is an indicator light that shows me when system is injecting... I didn't push it hard on my short test drive yesterday as it was a baseline drive to make sure I didn't mess up the works. real testing this week.

Ken
'62 Spyder cpe - '63 Monza convertible
Florida

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 06, 2017 03:46PM

I think Ken has a pretty darned cool set-up as is- there's plusses and minus's
with everything. One of the downsides to a single jet at the turbo is the possibility of one side of the engine not getting as much fluid as the other,
and also, one large jet wouldn't be expected to emulsify as well as multiple small ones at the same total area and flow as the single large one. One thing that Kens set-up does well is to give equal amounts of fluid to both sides of the engine, and also cools down the manifold portion of the head, which by the way doesn't run nearly as hot as the "head temperature". The downside to where those jets are isn't so much where they are, but how they are aimed. I know that in the Aquamist install that I had, they wanted you to aim the jets at a 45 degree angle to the flow direction, and most EFI set-ups that inject into a tube want about the same. Probably not a huge difference either way, as some efi set-ups do inject 90 degrees to the tube. If it turns out that what Ken
has doesn't quite cut it, he could certainly add a third, smaller jet up at the
Turbo, and end up with something that would work better than most anyone else's! It's always a good thing to remember how the Old Guys Old school method worked on WWII aircraft, as they took that "small amount of fluid at
as many points as possible" idea much much farther than ANY turbo car has!
Modern water jet tech though has come a very long way, some systems are driving the jets in a very fuel injection like manner.... some of the really fast guys have gone to putting as many water jets in as fuel injectors, with a common rail for the water jets as well as the gasoline injectors!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: February 06, 2017 05:16PM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Ken has a pretty darned cool set-up as is-
> there's plusses and minus's
> with everything. One of the downsides to a single
> jet at the turbo is the possibility of one side of
> the engine not getting as much fluid as the
> other,
> and also, one large jet wouldn't be expected to
> emulsify as well as multiple small ones at the
> same total area and flow as the single large one.
> One thing that Kens set-up does well is to give
> equal amounts of fluid to both sides of the
> engine, and also cools down the manifold portion
> of the head, which by the way doesn't run nearly
> as hot as the "head temperature". The downside to
> where those jets are isn't so much where they are,
> but how they are aimed. I know that in the
> Aquamist install that I had, they wanted you to
> aim the jets at a 45 degree angle to the flow
> direction, and most EFI set-ups that inject into a
> tube want about the same. Probably not a huge
> difference either way, as some efi set-ups do
> inject 90 degrees to the tube. If it turns out
> that what Ken
> has doesn't quite cut it, he could certainly add a
> third, smaller jet up at the
> Turbo, and end up with something that would work
> better than most anyone else's! It's always a good
> thing to remember how the Old Guys Old school
> method worked on WWII aircraft, as they took that
> "small amount of fluid at
> as many points as possible" idea much much farther
> than ANY turbo car has!
> Modern water jet tech though has come a very long
> way, some systems are driving the jets in a very
> fuel injection like manner.... some of the really
> fast guys have gone to putting as many water jets
> in as fuel injectors, with a common rail for the
> water jets as well as the gasoline injectors!


No problems with a single jet here. Mine is going on 4 years like that. I also run a single jet on my 87 Grand National which makes more than double the power that even the highest output Corvair engine does. I put my own system together and found the best atomization at the discharge of the turbocharger.

Lee J

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 06, 2017 06:24PM

I understand- totally agree with where you are coming from with that, mine
was like that also, at the turbo. Most of us don't try testing other ways of
doing things like this to have a good baseline or comparison. We get it working, it solves our issue, and don't take it any further than that. I've seen video of "very well emulsified water spray" inside a running engine, the shot was taken at the end of a runner thru a clear plate- the point of this was to see how well this "well emulsified" shot of water could make the turn, and go to the port- basically, because of the considerable inertia of the water, most of the water simply didn't go down the hole to port, and instead SPLATTED into the clear plate. Its things like that cause guys to try doing
stuff like that differently. Totally not knocking anything that you've done with your car in the slightest..

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: February 16, 2017 11:06AM

kmart356 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Want to add an indicator light to tell me when system is activated. Thinking of using a dash light mounted in place of the lighter (nice and big incan bulb).

Follow up to my idea regarding the dash light - agua blue of course.thumbs up





Ken
'62 Spyder cpe - '63 Monza convertible
Florida

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 16, 2017 08:47PM

Cool! The question is... does the light come on at roughly the boost level that you set it for?

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: February 17, 2017 04:45AM

I typically test my system before I drive the car; especially if it has sat for awhile. I can tell mine is working by the wide band gauge; if the air fuel ratio is where I set it then I know it is working fine smiling smiley

Lee J

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: February 17, 2017 04:57AM

Light is wired/controlled by same circuit that activates the pump & solenoid. That has all been tested with water spewing all over the floor. The Nason boost switch controls turn on (psi) - testing this weekend.

Ken
'62 Spyder cpe - '63 Monza convertible
Florida

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: February 17, 2017 05:14AM

I always test as methanol does some horrific things to pumps and nozzles. Just because the pump comes on does not mean it is spraying. Things I have seen are clogged nozzles or diaphram problems.
Some of the set ups I have built have had a "test" button.

Lee J

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: Corvair_Kid ()
Date: February 18, 2017 08:05AM

I have been running snow performance stage 1 kit for past few years, no problem running one nozzle going into intake hat. I have reservoir and pump mounted in truck, runs of stand alone computer that i can set what psi it starts injecting and what psi i want most injected. Kit comes with low level float which i have light on center counsel that tells me when im running low and when it starts injection. I run -30 below windshield piper fluid when daily driving but when racing i run boost juice in reservoir.

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: March 17, 2017 08:33AM

Update.

The DevilsOwn system is working nicely. Pump is set for 200psi and boost controlled switch is set to turn injection on at 5psi. It is just on-off, no flow control. Initially using -20F windshield washer fluid (which gives approx. 30% methanol) but it is hard to find de-icer in Florida. Looking for washer fluid that has 35% methanol or going to order some Boost Juice with 49% Methanol. Staying with the two nozzle design, one for each head on intake flange. Solenoid prevents back-flow and Tee-fitting next to it feeds dual nozzles. Dash indicator light turns on blue to tell me injection is on. I have confirmed by monitoring fluid level. No leaks using the push-fit connections.

After a few WOT test runs, I reduced the boost retard setting on Safeguard to allow an additional 2deg timing under full boost and no knock to speak of with outside temps 72-74deg. Initial timing was not changed. The engine feels stronger (seat of pants dyno), makes boost quickly and pulls nicely to 5500rpm. These results with external wastegate set to 9psi max. My next adjustment will be to increase wastegate boost setting to 12psi for more testing. The old waste gate had 14psi spring but I now have Ultra Gate38 with Grimmspeed MBC. As it gets a bit hotter in the next month or so thinking that 14-15psi will be max boost cutoff.

Ken
'62 Spyder cpe - '63 Monza convertible
Florida

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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: March 17, 2017 05:08PM

Until you get your car on a dyno, you will have to try some 0-60 tests to see
how your changes are working, plus you will then be loading the engine hard enough to really test your timing. The best I've heard of is 7.9 seconds for
a set-up close to what you have.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Turbo - Water/Methanol Injection
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 17, 2017 05:15PM

[play.google.com]

One these could be fun as well

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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