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Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 07, 2015 03:24PM

In a 65 Turbo, I'm installing a Pertronix 2 and a Flametrower 2 coil with 0.6 ohm resistance. I did some searching here and found a diagram which shows both the coil and Pert 2 wired directly to 12 volts, in other words no resistor in the wiring at all. Is that correct?

I had a similar thread called Pertronix 1 wiring a while back which helped a lot. With that because my installation had a resistor module instead of a wire in the harness it was easy to wire it per the instuctions. This was 12 volts directly to the Pertronix 1 module in the distributor. The + wire to the 1.6 ohm stock type coil going through the resistor. Motohead and others apparently wire them both through the resistor with Pertronix 1s with good results but not so with Pertronix 2s.

I'm using the Pertronix 2 and Flame Thrower .6 ohm coil because I have them. I'm installing hotter ignition because this turbo seems to want it.

Thanks for a reply and confirmation on the proper way to wire a Pertronix 2.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: July 07, 2015 03:44PM

Hey Jim, I wire the pert 1 and 2 right to the stock coils with no problems, I only use the pert 1 on PG as the 2's seem to have a idle problem, but for a 12 volt coil I run them off a 12v supply, So I think you will be fine.







1960 4dr sedan caveman car
1961 Rampside (Chetside)
1962 Rampside (Barnside)
1962 Short Rampside (Shortside)
1962 Monza 700 Wagon
1963 Monza 900 coup (General Nader)

-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 14, 2017 02:28PM

So how come a Pertronix 2 can run with a direct 12 volts to a .6 ohm low resistance coil and a Pertronix 2 should have a ballast resistor and a 1.6 ohm or so resistance coil for a total of 3 ohms?
I have two new .6 ohm Flamethrower coils that I inherited from somewhere and my customer has two of them. He was running direct 12 volts to a .6 ohm Flamethrower coil and black Pertronix 1 for a few years until it failed coming home from the convention. He has a new red Pertronix 2 in the box that doesn't work, I'm not sure where he got it.
Is there a way to run a .6 ohm Flamethrower coil with a black Pertronix 1?

I picked it up and it had bad points and condensor they installed on the road after the Pertronix 1 failed. I got it running with new points and condensor and a used stock coil, trouble was my old coil would heat up and quit after a few minutes. I put in a different coil and it was good. I then tried his new Pertronix 2 with his Flamethrower coil and it wouldn't work. I've now got my old spare Pertronix 1 in there with his Flamethrower coil and it works but not how I want to leave it. It's been quite a day.

So my question remains how to use some of these .6 ohm coils.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: Leon ()
Date: July 14, 2017 02:36PM

The pertroix 2 units I have seen fail were all due to low voltage/improper resistance coils, 3ohm coil 12 volt feed IIRC.

Star NC
1965 Monza Coupe, turbocharged 140/4spd, Carter AFB 4bbl, E-flow Crown turbo, water/meth injection, driver
1965 Corsa Coupe, 140/4spd, future project
1966 Monza Coupe, 110/4spd parts car
1966 Monza 'vert, 95/PG parts car
1985 Dodge W350 4dr turbocharged 440/4spd

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: July 14, 2017 02:56PM

0.6 ohm coil needs a resistor regardless of P1 or P2

Experience and Bob Helt and others show that any coils with less than 1.3 ohm primary resistance.. need the added resistance...

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: July 14, 2017 02:59PM

Pertronix II Wiring Instructions from Pertronix - these guys say "no resistor"
How can this be so complicated, UGH

Snippet of diagram

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2017 03:01PM by kmart356.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 14, 2017 03:06PM

The Petronix II Ignitor has a "proprietary" circuit that controls the level of "power" the coil gets. This concept was developed by GM for the H.E.I. distributor and has evolved into many variations. Due to engine speed the time a coil is charged varies. Too long and things over heat, too short and you get a week spark. The GM H.E.I and Petronix II "adjust" to prevent over heating, yet provide good coil charging at higher RPM. The issue with the Petronix II is it was basically designed for a V8 and with a six you get too few firing impulses at low RPM with a six - like a PG in drive (600 RPM) - at least that's what common wisdom and the forum have to say. With a manual just set the RPM to about 900 and it should work fine.

The Petronix Ignitor (I) can handle about the power consumed by a 3.0 ohm load. So a 0.6 ohm coil with not ballast will over heat a Petrionix Ignitor (I).

I don't like hooking the Petronix power wire to the coil "+" lead because you expose the module to possible coil back EMF spikes. It's not good electrical design. That said, davemotohead has done it for years with out a problem. I would install the radio noise supression condenser (capacitor) at the coil "+" terminal if you use it to power the Petronix.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 14, 2017 03:30PM

So a guy might be able to use a .6 ohm Flamethrower 2 coil with a Pertronix 1 by running the coil + through a ballast resistor. It might not get you to 3 ohms but it might be okay?
Since in this case I'd be using an external ballast resistor, I could power the Pertronix 1 off the 12V side. Any reason not to power the Pertonix 1 from the 12V side?
In perusing the Pertronix 1 and Pertronix 2 instructions, I don't think I've seen anything there that's contrary to anything we've been saying here. I've muddied up the waters with my most recent inquiry regarding using a Flamethrower 2 coil with a Pertronix 1 module, normally a no-no.
Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: Leon ()
Date: July 14, 2017 03:37PM

The pertronix 1 doesn't care about it's input voltage much, anything 8-16 volts and it's happy, mine is powered off the coil so it switches from 12/8 volts start/run and has yet to give an issue.

Star NC
1965 Monza Coupe, turbocharged 140/4spd, Carter AFB 4bbl, E-flow Crown turbo, water/meth injection, driver
1965 Corsa Coupe, 140/4spd, future project
1966 Monza Coupe, 110/4spd parts car
1966 Monza 'vert, 95/PG parts car
1985 Dodge W350 4dr turbocharged 440/4spd

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 14, 2017 07:17PM

JimBrandberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So a guy might be able to use a .6 ohm
> Flamethrower 2 coil with a Pertronix 1 by running
> the coil + through a ballast resistor. It might
> not get you to 3 ohms but it might be okay?
> Since in this case I'd be using an external
> ballast resistor, I could power the Pertronix 1
> off the 12V side. Any reason not to power the
> Pertonix 1 from the 12V side?
> In perusing the Pertronix 1 and Pertronix 2
> instructions, I don't think I've seen anything
> there that's contrary to anything we've been
> saying here. I've muddied up the waters with my
> most recent inquiry regarding using a Flamethrower
> 2 coil with a Pertronix 1 module, normally a
> no-no.
> Jim Brandberg
> Isanti, MN
> CorvairRepair.com

Jim - the problem is amperage. The stock Corvair had a 1.8 ohm ballast wire (except 62-63 Sypder) and about a 1.25ohm coil (these are close to average values). So you get about 3 ohms total and about 4.8 Amps (it's more complicated, but this is just for comparison). A 0.6 ohm coil and 1.8 ohm ballast is about 6 Amps or about a 25% increase in Amperage and I know from experience (somebody tried this) that the ballast wire will get HOT, beyond design parameters.

I got a call from someone to be unnamed saying -- "I put in a Flamethrower coil and I smell something burning".

I checked and the the ballast wire was getting hot in the wiring harness. It's NOT A GOOD IDEA to heat up the wiring harness.

I verified the coil was a 0.6 ohm some "Corvair" expert told him to install to make the car run better. A little more work and I found the timing was off. Installed stock coil with Ignitor (I), set the timing - car ran great.

In your case a Turbo can benefit from higher coil power output. Run the Ignitor II with the 0.6 ohm coil and by-pass the ballast resistor in the harness.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2017 07:21PM by 66vairman.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: July 14, 2017 07:43PM

The instructions posted are simple... the 0.6 FT coil is meant to have a full 12 volts..

Obviously the oil is wound special for Pertronix! And that's how they get the higher output from it.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 15, 2017 07:31AM

So to sum it up, the only good way to use a .6 ohm coil if you have one is with a Pertonix 2, just like it says in the Clarks chart. The .6 coil likes to run on a full 12 volts. A Pertronix 1 may last for a while with a .6 ohm coil at 12 volts but will tend to overheat.
I also like the explanation that the Pertronix 2 was developed for V-8s, while it works with our 6 cylinders it doesn't like a low idle.
Thanks for the help, I appreciate the input from the many fine folks here.
Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 15, 2017 08:36AM

Good questions Jim.

While Petronix instructions are better than in the past, they still leave a lot to be desired. I suspect this is why so many people have problems with Petronix units.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: February 05, 2020 05:21AM

I'm working on a 140 repairing a mechanical failure. I've never worked on the car so I'm not sure how well it was running. It was going down the road.

When disassembling I noticed the coil was wired backwards with Pertronix red and ignition yellow wires to coil - and the Pertronix black and tach brown wires to coil +.

Now when assembling I noticed the resistor wire is in place with a stock type coil and Pertronix 2. Previous experiences lead me to believe this may not work so well. What do you think?

I've been doing this as a remote repair and hoping to wrap it all up next time but I've noticed some other bugaboos as well. It's hardly ever easy and straightforward.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: May 22, 2020 10:54AM

Another Pertronix 2 story but I feel I must go the long way around the block.
I had a 65 110 4 speed here today that wouldn't start well and had poor performance. The owner did the pushrod tubes himself and was convinced he didn't have the lifter adjustment correct because that's the only thing different.
He trailered it here and I noticed it would want to fire in Start position but not continue to run in On position, finally he got it started. He mentioned "electronic ignition" and when I asked if it was installed at a different time than the pushrod tubes or at the same time I didn't really get an answer.
I did the lifter adjustment first since that's what it came here for and they were fine, only I went 3/4 turn instead of 1/2.
It had a red Pertronix 2 and unknown Pertronix coil because it was turned backwards and slid down in the bracket pretty far. I ran a jumper wire from the battery to the coil for a full 12 volts and it stared and ran good. I rewired the harness to take the resistor wire out of the mix and all seems well.
I had to have a look at the coil for my own curiosity, I would have guessed a 3.0 ohm but it turned out to be a 0.6.
I ran it down the road 5 miles or so and the coil didn't get hot so I think we're good to go.
I dug up this old thread to see if it aligned and to post another finding for posterity.
Regarding whether or not a Pertronix 2 will work with the resistance wire in place, I would think if it doesn't run with a 0.6 coil, it won't work with anything. I'm certainly open to reading more.
I sure get a lot of different Pertronix results that show up and everyone thinks when they spend the money on one their troubles are over.
Oh and part of the poor performance may have been the rubber hose on the inlet fuel line wouldn't allow the left carburetor linkage to open more than halfway. But I digress.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2020 10:55AM by JimBrandberg.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: May 22, 2020 11:42AM

From my experience the COIL and the PERTRONIX device need to be seen as SEPARATE items. The coil needs the proper resistance it is designed for. So, some coils use resistors..., and others not. The use of the resistor is coil dependent. If one uses a stock coil then the factory resistor wire (or resistor block) applies. Some coils are full 12 volts and properly done would have a switched 12 volt source void of a resistor wire or resistor block.

The Pertronix device itself is rated between 9-12 volts. There should be no harm in running them on a direct, switched 12 volt source. While the coil + location (when it is a non-resistive 12 volt source) is a convenient attachment location as noted above it has the potential for side effects. Likewise some people get away with powering the Pertronix from the resistor side of a power source. But the Pertronix is potentially running at the lower end of the voltage rating and suspect to problems.

In a Corvair it is a long run from the ignition switch and a power source may better be served by a switched relay closer to the battery. This eliminates running a number of wires. All this seems to negate the supposed "simplicity" of the Pertronix being a "drop in" device to eliminate points. But, there is doing the job..., and doing it right (at least better).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2020 11:46AM by wittsend.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: May 22, 2020 04:08PM

Wow after all these years Pertronix is still a mystery - partly due to Petronix ambiguous instructions.

Fist - yes most older coils will run with the "+" and "-" leads reversed, but not optimally. Seen it many times.

Pertronix Ignitor I will not last if the TOTAL resistance of coil (and any ballast) is less than 3.0 ohms. BTW ALL coils for 12VDC systems are marked "12VDC" regardless of there resistance or need for a ballast. It a voltage rating for the insulation, nothing to do with resistance. You'll find 12VDC coils with resitance values from 1.4 ohms to 3.0 ohms. No ballast - use 3.0 ohm coil. GM was 1.8 ohm ballast and about 1.4 ohm coil (total 3.2 ohms).

Petronix Ignitor II has a variable dwell and other propitiatory designs so it will supply a 0.6 ohm coil with out a ballast (at least that's what Pertronix claims). Similar to GM HEI design to optimize ignition spark at both low and high RPM. Note GM had issues with the early HEI coils.

I have seen Pertronix Ignitor II drive a stock coil with ballast - not optimal, but it works - except with PG cars at idle.

Flamethrower coils - too many headaches with them. I won't use them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2020 04:11PM by 66vairman.

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: May 22, 2020 07:35PM

Quote
66
Fist - yes most older coils will run with the "+" and "-" leads reversed, but not optimally.

Yes, all this does is put reverse polarity on the spark plug. The coil does not care. But, reverse polarity on a spark plug makes it harder to fire*. So on older cars, this limits high speed performance. HEI overcomes this issues, hence why we see one coil powering two plugs on modern cars, like the Buick V-6 3800 distributor-less system.

* Warning, science and electricity explanation followseye popping smiley.... Electrons flow from negative to positive. So a spark is electrons flowing through the air (or vacuum or whatever). The flow is from negative to positive. For best chance of getting a spark to form, the negative terminal should be small and pointy, and the target (where the spark lands) should be large and be the positive terminal.

Ignition coils are wound to provide the high tension terminal (tower that goes to the distributor cap, rotor and then the spark plug) to be negative with respect to the case of the coil, i.e. ground. Yes, all engines (even your lawnmower) up until HEI systems had the high voltage negative with respect to ground.

The primary of the coil usually has + and - terminals, that needs to be connected to the battery (through ignition switch, points, etc) with the correct polarity. You see this problem more on positive ground cars, since that confuses the average Joe. Some coils are car specific, and actually have Battery (or switch) and Points labeled terminals. Just have to know what car they came off and the battery polarity. Not sure I have seen any 12 volt coils labeled this way, but I have in 6 volt coils.

Reverse the primary terminals, and the spark plug gets the wrong polarity and the spark tries to form on the "ground electrode" and jump to the tiny center electrode. Add high compression to this and more trouble making spark. Add Nitrous and even more trouble.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Pertronix 2 Wiring
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: May 23, 2020 04:56AM

Going O/T, the very next Corvair I test drove was here for a stuck clutch after being in a flood.
I did a few basic tuning things on the carburetors like accelerator pump cups. Totally stock points and condensor ignition, I checked the Dwell and Timing, both were good.
It ran great around the block. On a whim I decided to take it to town for a longer drive. After 5 miles or so it ran poorly and refused to attain high RPMs. The coil felt maybe a little hot so I replaced it with an old one and it runs great.
To quote Burgess Meredith from Grumpy Old Men, "that just goes to show you"...

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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