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ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: March 19, 2015 12:39AM

One of the frustrations I have faced in supplying the new electronic distributors for the Corvair, besides having to wait for the second production quantity to complete, is that there is no “pressure retard” assembly available for the distributor. I have had a number of requests for the turbo engine application. But the Electronic Distributor, as it is now configured, cannot be used on the turbo-charged Spyder and Corsa models. The original turbo distributor uses a combination of the pressure retard unit and a “Special” mechanical advance curve to supply the correct ignition timing needed for the boosted motor. The actual curve is well documented.

In my quest to find a solution for the Corvair turbo motor – which can use all the ignition help then can get – I have found several alternate solutions. The solutions are similar in that they use the distributor as both a trigger and to feed the plug wires the spark. The first solution ties the Electronic Distributor to the Safeguard ignition system. This will use the magnetic-pulse trigger portion of the distributor to tell the Safeguard the crank position of each cylinder, then distribute the safeguard-monitored spark output to the plug wires and the plugs. The advantages of the Safeguard are well documented, acting to optimize each spark on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis. For availability, check with American-Pi at their web site: [www.american-pi.com]

The second solution uses an MSD Boost Control module to modify the timing curve already in the distributor based on the boost level on the turbo. This system places a controller for the driver to adjust the response and retard the spark a certain amount – 1 degree, 2 degrees 3 degrees, based on the PSI of boost pressure. This is MSD P/N 8762 and it also requires an MSD 6 box for full operation.

[www.msdignition.com]



The third method has the potential to allow the engine builder to design an exact advance curve and react to turbo boost to provide the same timing retard provided by the OEM system. The Ignition box is familiar to most racers as it is also built by MSD. Their Programmable 6AL-2 Ignition Control, PN 6530. It is accessible from a laptop, via a free software download, to choose the advance curve desired and the response to boost pressure. The box has a port to provide pressure input as well. The Electronic Distributor is specially set-up to work with the Programmable box with a turbo engine, and this will be done as a low-cost option with purchase. Note that this MSD unit will work fine with non-turbo motors and will provide any advance curve desired. [www.msdignition.com]



When the second production run of distributors is available – Soon, I hope – I would be happy to work with someone who is building a turbo motor and wants to have better control over the spark.



- Seth Emerson

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: cad-kid ()
Date: March 19, 2015 04:38AM

Thank you for the continued research on the electronic distributor Seththumbs up

It's great to see you building value with this product instead of just dumping it on the market and sitting back.

Spring's almost to Wisconsin and the electronic distributor will soon be installed in my summer driver smiling bouncing smiley

Jeremy (cad-kid)
Kronenwetter, WI (Central Wisconsin)
SOLD-9-2016 65 Monza 4spd/140
<a href=http://corvaircenter.com/phorum/read.php?1,570615>My 65 Monza thread</a>
<a href=https://www.youtube.com/user/cad0kid>My YouTube page</a> yawning smiley

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: March 19, 2015 06:41PM

Seth said "The third method has the potential to allow the engine builder to design an exact advance curve and react to turbo boost to provide the same timing retard provided by the OEM system. The Ignition box is familiar to most racers as it is also built by MSD. Their Programmable 6AL-2 Ignition Control, PN 6530. It is accessible from a laptop, via a free software download, to choose the advance curve desired and the response to boost pressure. The box has a port to provide pressure input as well. The Electronic Distributor is specially set-up to work with the Programmable box with a turbo engine, and this will be done as a low-cost option with purchase. Note that this MSD unit will work fine with non-turbo motors and will provide any advance curve desired. [www.msdignition.com]"

A great solution Seth. On the later GM HEI distributor systems the distributor provided a reference timing signal to the computer and then the computer controlled the coil timing based on manifold air pressure, RPM, etc. No distributor weights or vacuum module. You set the computer to a "static mode" and adjusted the distributor reference timing just like a standard distributor, then the computer control was switched on and you were good to go.

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: rarroyo ()
Date: January 27, 2020 08:29AM

Any tech updates for providing electronic distributor to turbo motors?

Thanks,
Rafa

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 27, 2020 08:42AM

I found this a few months ago

[progressionignition.com]

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: January 27, 2020 04:51PM

[www.cbperformance.com]


Wonder if you could add this to Seth's

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 27, 2020 07:28PM

I'm building two turbo engines for customers this winter, basically stock. I think the third option sounds good and will certainly consider it.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: January 27, 2020 10:11PM

Following!!

____________________________________________

Eric C. Player, Porterville, CA, USA (Seriously! It's the USA out here!)
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and the San Joaquin Valley Corvair Club.
THEN:
1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow
1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red
1966 Monza 110, Purple
1967 Monza 140, Red
1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow"
1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW:
1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"

"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'

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Re: CB Performance "Black Box" interface [ MS Windows?]
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 27, 2020 11:34PM

May work with Apple....

CB Performance "Black Box" interface


Download and extract to a FOLDER that you make

See if you feel comfortable with it.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: January 28, 2020 12:22AM

I have talked with the guy who runs progressionignition in Southern California. He starts with the same TSP distributor that I sold. (Now sold by Clarks and California Corvair.) It is a great concept. If the electronic can prove reliable, it would be a helpful turbo set-up. He removes the pre-installed electronics. All of the electronics inside is his and new. When I talked with him, more than a month ago, he was working on his first Corvair unit. He also converts other units, mostly GM V8s. The CB performance unit looks good as well.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: January 28, 2020 05:21AM

I had an idea to build the Turbo EFI without the FI. The ECM (MS) that we use obviously provides fuel control and timing. It uses a 1-Bar MAP sensor to measure vacuum and adjust fuel and timing based on that and other sensors. A 2&3-Bar sensor not only measures vacuum, but pressure also for the Turbo guys. It takes those vacuum/pressures and applies to a Timing table and "boom"... whatever you put in the cell is what timing your is (Good or bad).

My EFI system uses a Logic coil (Todays Coil) and the ECM either advances the spark or retards based on the table... nothing too complicated. A trigger wheel is used to measure RPMS and indicate #1, Temp sensor that trims timing, MAP for overall control and maybe a TPS, but I don't think it really needs it. It also has adjustable dwell if you need hotter spark under boost.

Now... The biggest reason I don't do it is....I don't have a Turbo. The second reason is all your missing is a couple of injectors and you have a fully working EFI system. I have everything to make the system now, but I don't know if cost would work out, but it is a proven system with years of experience behind it.

If anyone close to Anderson, SC is thinking about something (after it warms up of course), I might do something at cost as the timing would be "dog" easy to control and your 75% of the way to fuel injection if you take the next step.

Ted

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: January 28, 2020 03:55PM

Ive got a good running 64 Spyder. I would be up to being the Ginni Pig maybe this summer.Got to see what the Tax man does to me smiling smiley Im north of Atlanta Mike

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2020 03:58PM by v8vair.

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 29, 2020 04:41AM

I didn't notice that the original post was from 2015.

I don't think either of my guys this winter are interested in a bigger investment at this time but any turbo engine could use some updates from the antiquated ignition timing control. We will probably be at the Dale advance/retard level for these two projects.

I'm excited to do Turbo EFI and ignition upgrades but it's customer driven at this point.

I've got a turbo engine of my own but it's on the shelf, 140 heads with compression reduced, built by someone else. All it needs is time and money...

Following this topic too!!

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: jazzworkerbee ()
Date: February 10, 2020 08:18PM

This is a super interesting topic! I'm looking to upgrade my stock turbo beyond the Pertronix that's in there, but I'm not made of money either. It appears as though the MSD 6btm with a waste gate is the best bang for the buck at this point. Would any of you with experience give a few thoughts on this set up and what rev limiter chip you prefer?

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Re: ELectronic distributor for Turbo motors
Posted by: coppermonza ()
Date: February 14, 2020 02:11PM

This is not exactly on topic and also not the least expensive way to get around the distributor issue, but it's what I'm working on now. I removed the vacuum advance from the stock distributor and installed an electronic pic-up in the distributor. The beauty of this setup is that the FiTech EFI will not only control the spark and timing, it will also control the fuel rate from the in-tank fuel pump. Still a couple of weeks away from starting this beast and will let you know how it turns out.

Brian

Eagle, Idaho

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