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Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 19, 2014 05:53AM

I decided to replace the noisy transmission (pitted gears,bad bearings) on the 64 Sagan Spyder that had less than 50 miles on it since I restored the car. It had new Clark's blocker rings and syncro dogs.

I found another transmission with good gears and replaced the countergear shaft, all roller and main shaft bearings and removed the new blocker rings and syncro dogs from the original transmission and put them on the replacement transmission. This was a nice looking transmission.

The problem with the replacement transmission is that the third gear blocker ring is sticking making shifting into third gear extremely difficult (until the blocker rings frees up). Then the shift is very rough due to the pressure on the shifter to free the blocker ring. There is no gear clash. I noticed this problem (sticking third gear blocking ring) before I installed the transmission but had faith that it would free up in use. Wrong! The shift into third is so rough that I am afraid something is going to break. The gear oil is NAPA 85-90 GL4. Clark's suggests to just drive it.

Anyone else ever had this problem? What can I do about it? Help!!!

Dennis Dorogi
Brocton, NY

63 Rampside
65 4 door Monza

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 19, 2014 07:27AM

There's a process to "Burnish" the synchro but it's risky: Idling in gear, clutch pedal up (engaged for driving), select and attempt to engage the gear for about 2 seconds with moderate pressure on the shifter. Repeat and test. This is an attempt to wear the brass to better fit the gear cone.

I wonder: Were both transmissions the same year? Synchro blockers changed between 63 and 64 models.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 19, 2014 08:04AM

They sure looked identical - no drain plug - I actually used the case from the Sagan car and transfered the main shaft and countergear to it with new bearings, countergear shaft and blocker rings. Mainshaft definitely the same in both transmissions.

Dennis D.

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 19, 2014 08:13AM

If the mainshafts were the same, definitely the same trans. The 61-3 trans has a different MS layout.

Although the oil you selected sounds perfectly right, different oils have different "stickiness" in re synchro action. I hope Richard 1 chimes in here. He may have a suggestion for a different lubricant or a friction-modifier additive that may help out.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: August 20, 2014 07:46AM

The sta-lube 85-90 is over the top of what we want in viscosity. We should be looking at an 80W-90. I once had more complete specs than what I can currently find on the web. At 100ºC,
A 75W-90 can run between 4.1 cst and 18.5 cst
An 80W-90 can run between 7.0 cst and 18.5 cst
An 85W-90 can run between 11.0 cst and 18.5 cst

In practice,
the 75W-90's run around 11-14
the 80W-90's around 16-17
the 85W-90's around the 18.5 limit

At 40º they can all run up to 220 cst, but in general
the 75W-90's can run up to about 90 cst
the 80W-90's to about 150 cst
the 85W-90's to about 220 cst

It is a huge category, and why many brands are now specing 75W-80 or 75W-85.

Assuming it is because it is tight, I'd drop to something thinner, particularly the Amsoil or Motorcraft 75W-90 synthetic.

BTW, with Volvo, Mack, and Mercedes now recommending 75W-90 GL-4 synthetics, there are some excellent synthetics in the market, although the Volvo and Mack are on the low end of the viscosity side with some of them actually in the 75W-85 category.

Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 20, 2014 09:40AM

Thank you Richard. I know that Brocton NY isn't Boliva but it is very difficult to find any GL-4 in this area. This car will never be driven in cold weather so I thought the 80-90 GL4 would be OK. I will order some 75-90 GL4 synthetic online and hope for the best. I don't want to remove the drivetrain again.

Dennis D
Brocton, NY.

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: August 20, 2014 12:37PM

OK I know there is one racer of this group using this stuff. I have found several such responses from Red Line about this product. It looks like you can get synchro and hypoid safe lube in one product.

[www.redlineoil.com]


Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, glad the 75W90NS is performing well in your Miata transmission.
Neither the 75W90NS nor any of our GL-5 gear oils are harmful to brass or bronze synchros, they are not corrosive and do not cause pitting or metal removal. Some GL-5 gear lubes do contain sufficient EP additives to be corrosive, those could consequently reduce synchro life by 50%. The "NS" refers to No Slippery additives, it has essentially no friction modifiers so it isn't too slippery for the synchros in a manual transmission. There is no need for concern using the 75W90NS in your transmission.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: August 20, 2014 08:58PM

I have had good success with the Mobil One synthetic. It has a broad range and is very light weight. I would only caution that it seeps easily through pores in the case or out of seals.
Crawford Rose

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Tom Z ()
Date: August 21, 2014 12:26AM

Dennis-try calling Deckman oil, Honeoye Falls NY 14472..585-624-1630, ask for Matt.. www.deckmanoil.com ; I talked with him at a cruise and he said they 'would be getting' the 'old stuff' for the old car guys needs..

Tom Z,,Rochester NY

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: dryenko ()
Date: August 21, 2014 05:33AM

The new syncros from Clark's are not the equivalent of the GM originals, in my experience. They look to be cheap brass, while the originals are a bronze compound.
I also found they are not round or uniform in thickness.
I had a V8 Crown problem transmission brought to me with similar issue and with the "new" syncro rings installed by another transmission shop.
The problem was corrected with some lightly used original GM syncro rings.
I suspect your problem will continue until the rings are swapped out.
Regardless of gear oil used.
Richard's recommendations are spot on, however.
If asked, I recommend the reuse of the already broken in original GM syncros if not worn or damaged from abusive shifting.
Or NOS GM ones, suitable lapped into the gear syncro cone surface with ultra fine lapping compound [ and a though cleaning after !!]
YM [ and shift quality ] MV

Bob C aka Dryenko
Dobson, NC 27017

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 21, 2014 06:08AM

I didn't realize I had such a unique problem (darn). I first noticed the
problem when I was shifting the transmission when it was out of the car. To
lubricate everything a bit I squirted some oil (10-30wt) from my oil can and
then while manually shifting it - well, sometimes it would not shift - and
then noticed the sticking blocker rings - most of them. I could gently pry
the blocker rings loose from their mateing cones with a small screw driver
and then the transmission would shift. I decided the oil might be too thin
so I cleaned it out the best I could with carb cleaner and then used the
proper 85-90 oil and that seemed to free up the blockers except for the
third gear one which would occasionly stick. I figured it would probably be
OK when the gear oil was in splashing in the transmission. But it is really
sticking in the car.

I don't know what to do - The irony is
that the blocker rings worked fine in the original transmission - why not in
the replacement one? Did I get them mixed up? I don't think so but this
old mind gets confused. I sure wish I didn't change the blocker rings. I probably will try some synthetic transmission oil. I don't want to remove the drivetrain for a third time as it is hard for this nearly 80 year old. A turbo is a real pain. This car is really fighting me!

Dennis D
Brocton, NY

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: August 21, 2014 10:55AM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK I know there is one racer of this group using
> this stuff. I have found several such responses
> from Red Line about this product. It looks like
> you can get synchro and hypoid safe lube in one
> product.
>
> [www.redlineoil.com]
> 04
>
>
> Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, glad the
> 75W90NS is performing well in your Miata
> transmission.
> Neither the 75W90NS nor any of our GL-5 gear oils
> are harmful to brass or bronze synchros, they are
> not corrosive and do not cause pitting or metal
> removal. Some GL-5 gear lubes do contain
> sufficient EP additives to be corrosive, those
> could consequently reduce synchro life by 50%. The
> "NS" refers to No Slippery additives, it has
> essentially no friction modifiers so it isn't too
> slippery for the synchros in a manual
> transmission. There is no need for concern using
> the 75W90NS in your transmission.
>
> Regards, Dave
> Red Line Oil

Based on this response to me back when I wrote the recommendations, I discount anything Redline says. We are not talking corrosion, we are talking wear and resistance to stopping. This is what I wrote in the paper:

Quote
“In your Corvair manual transaxle I would recommend the 75W90NS as a GL-5 type gear oil was originally called for. A GL-4 gear oil is suitable for use in a zero or low offset hypoid gear application, where extreme pressures of a high offset hypoid are present a GL-5 gear oil is required. In your transaxle where high offset gears are not present, a GL-4 gear oil could be used though we would recommend a GL-5 as called for.”

While he confirms that the Corvair does not have high offset hypoid gears (“In your transaxle where high offset gears are not present”), he says he recommends his GL-5 product because the Corvair originally recommended GL-5 (“a GL-5 type gear oil was originally called for”). There is a problem with that statement: The GL categories are based on the ASTM STP 512 standards which were originally developed in 1972, three years after the end of the production of the Corvair.


Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 21, 2014 11:03AM

It is all enough to confuse this already confused mind. Thanks Richard.

Dennis D.
Brocton, NY

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: August 21, 2014 11:14AM

Gee Dennis I'm only getting close to 70 and it seems like the old girl is fighting more than she used to.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: August 21, 2014 11:15AM

I don't think your blocker ring is sticking on the cone. If it was the gear would be stopped and it would shift fine.
Sounds like the problem is in the syncro or the shift shaft.mike

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 21, 2014 11:42AM

Mike / V8vair wrote: "I don't think your blocker ring is sticking on the cone. If it was the gear would be stopped and it would shift fine.
Sounds like the problem is in the syncro or the shift shaft."

Craig replies: In my understanding, the synchro keys (which push on the blocker and cause it to grab the gear's cone) release at the last second to allow the gear to rotate slightly and align its teeth with the slider teeth so the slider can slide over and drive the gear. Angled faces on both facilitate rotation.

If the blocker is stuck on the gear, the gear teeth can't properly align to the slider and the slider can't advance.

A sticking blocker is indeed an issue, if we're all interpreting the situation correctly.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 21, 2014 02:22PM

Craig nailed it exactly. That is what is happening.

Dennis D
Brocton, NY

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: August 21, 2014 03:48PM

Maybe so,but in my 30 plus years of building manual transmissions, and I have built many from VW to Muncie I have never seen a stuck Blocker ring.
Trans that were run without gear oil, overheated etc the rings just fall off the cone.
I still believe one of the dogs is broken or something in the detent.
If changing gear oil fixes it please let us know. Mike

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: Dennis D ()
Date: August 21, 2014 06:11PM

This problem was occuring before I put the transmission in the car. Sometimes the transmission would not shift into third. If I took a small screwdriver and gently pryed the blocker ring from the cone - freeing the blocker ring to rotate, then the transmission would shift as the blocker ring was then free to align things up. I thought it would be Ok in use but I was wrong. The transmission had all new blocker rings, syncro dogs, and bearings.

I did something wrong, wish I hadn't, and am sorry to bore all of you with this subject.

Dennis Dorogi
Brocton, NY.

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Re: Help! Sticking Blocker Ring
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: August 22, 2014 12:22AM

Dennis D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I did something wrong, wish I hadn't, and am sorry
> to bore all of you with this subject.
>
> Dennis Dorogi
> Brocton, NY.

Not boring. I worked with "Dan the Trans Man" on my 66 transmissions and it was quite an education. A lot of subtle things he explained that are NOT in the shop manual. While listening to Dan I realized that relatively speaking the earlier transmissions are even more difficult to sort out properly.

Good luck and I hope someone with a lot or transmission experience that can give you a hand.

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