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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: keitho64 ()
Date: May 09, 2013 09:52PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> you actually want it to the right.. the light
> corner on a Vair...


Good point, is that to offset the weight of the driver?

Keith
64 Monza Convert 110 4-speed
00 911 C2
"Horizontally Opposed"
05 GTO 6-speed (Gotta have a V8)
Chicago Burbs; the Anti-Dragon... 11 turns in 318 miles

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 09, 2013 10:06PM

Partially.. Engine is offset to the left as well.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: Chris Lampe ()
Date: May 09, 2013 10:30PM

What's the black knob on the right terminal? A quick disconnect/anti theft device?

Chris
Rowlett, Tx
NTCA - North Texas Corvair Association
CORSA
'64 Monza 'vert

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: May 10, 2013 06:25AM

Its a quick disconnect. I decided that add a safety measure against fire when the car sits for a while.

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: msal99 ()
Date: May 10, 2022 02:57PM

Sorry to revive a decade old thread but theres just not enough fast EM's around. After some research it appears enysys guy is right and stiff front/squishy back will neutralize the behavior of the coravir. I will probably achieve this with stock shocks and different spring rate springs. (civic springs will lower ride height and plenty of spring rate options).

My question is to limiting the tire tuck without doing this whole 63 swap. It seems I can do z-bar (something I'll need to get made and then have mounts made for as well?) as well as limiting straps (those I can make). Any other options?

I'm also interested in adapting double swivel axles either off a corvair or another car. Plenty of CV axles out there that might only need adapter plates or something of the sort. What do ya'll think of this?




62 4speed

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: May 10, 2022 07:16PM

Rather than limiting straps, you can accomplish the same thing with spacers under the lower shock mounts. Swivel axles? Remember, the EM bearings are pressed on the axles. You would have to come up with a bolt-on bearing hub attached to the swing arm and then fab the CV shafts....might be easier to bolt in a LM rear suspension!

Dan Brizendine, Circle City Corvairs
'64 8 door Greenbrier, +.060, stroked 1/4", 186 ci.140 PG. "In beautiful Wanamaker Indiana...with one stop light and 5 pizza shops"

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: May 10, 2022 09:41PM

Mr...99:

Hmm-m-m.. An Oldie-but-a-Goodie.

Your grip on the principles is getting firmer, but there is more to the equation than spring rates.

Please consider that softening the rear roll couple with softer springs alone, will result in a very undesirable sag in the rear of the car (softer springs + same weight = a dragging butt). It is this fundamental issue that the (often misleadingly named "Camber") Compensator was designed to address (that is, it compensates for the reduced load-carrying capacity of the requisite softer springs).

Their one-way action (only pushes up on the diff) and lack of a fixed center only works in the vertical, thus leaving the softer springs to deal with horizontal load vectors.

Under average driving conditions, this setup offered improvements in handling, but did little-to-nothing to prevent wheel/axle "jacking" or to control "excessive" wheel/axle movements.

The "Z" bar is the most effective solution, as it contributes to vertical load support, allows realization of a softer roll couple, and controls the travel of an unloaded wheel. These qualities/properties were long-employed in Formula Vee, allowing the deletion of any rear springs in the conventional sense.

The problem in its use is the mounting; the center section must be securely anchored to the tub (which most conveniently must occur above the transaxle), while allowing the needed clearance for arm motions (see p.1 of this thread; mid-eng. Vair). Of course, location below the gearbox is possible, but takes herculean (and heavy) mounting struts to pull it off.

The most practical approach is that demonstrated by the Skirmants transverse spring ("Virtual Z bar"; see p.2, this thread). The only improvement used in the version I built for my 356 so long ago, is the replacement of the center pinned connection with a "zero force" horizontal pivot (think of a 4-leaf hinge), allowing, by my reckoning, the spring to operate from end to end, instead of from end to center.

By the by; don't forget a beefy front "anti-sway" bar.


$.02 from the old cheap seats.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: May 10, 2022 11:33PM

Guess it really depends on your intended use as to what you want to do / how far you want to go.

Maybe not a lot of knowledge left on setting up EM Corvairs.

Seth Emerson's update of Bill Fisher's book - Performance Corvairs - covers changes to EMs in the "Making It Handle" section.

In Northern California, I recall two people (Bill Bamford and Louie Lira (mentioned by Matt Nall above) who autocrossed EMs in the 70's / 80's and beyond.

I last saw Louie Lira and his EM at the 2002 national convention in Flagstaff.

I do not know what they specifically did to the suspension of their cars (since I am a LM person), but they were fast. Recall Bamford's (62?) was really low in the rear.

Though, I do not think their mods are really for street use.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: May 11, 2022 04:17AM

Mike Levine is road racing an early model, perhaps he can chime in on this subject.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: msal99 ()
Date: May 11, 2022 12:28PM

Brizo: Thanks the spacers seem like a much cleaner solution. Will the added stress on the shock be an issue? (since I assume that what will limit the travel right?)

The LM swap was my original plan but seems it takes it takes a lot more parts than I thought. I'll need to take a closer look at the wheel side of the hub, but that might open the possibility of welding a modern cv axle to the vair's axle and make a half/half thing and ditch the whole hub. Does the hub basically only attach to the axle? Again I need to take a better look at it and brainstorm.


ensys: Thank you, glad youre still around here. So I suppose for the skirmants spring I would look for a corvette one and make the mounts myself? With ride height lowered I wonder how much clearance I would lose...

It would seem the area above my transaxle would not quite allow the proper mounting of normal z bar, as the P1 mid engine vair has a alot more space with panels cut out.

I am also curious as to what camber adjustments can be done front and rear. I know the static negative camber of the rear will increase as the ride height is lowered but for the fron should I look into adjustable A-arms or?



Robert: Intended use is track/autocross. I do have Seth's book and will go in for a re-read...also I'm nearby him and will talk with him next week. It definitely been hard to find things and it seems best option is to get a late model structure in there. Sort of off the table at this point in my life/build though.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: May 12, 2022 05:22AM

There nothing done special on the back of 362.Lowered, Heavy Springs, 2.5 Degrees negative camber, good shocks actually Gabrial Adjustables on full stiff and Radial tires. I do have some small chains limiting droop so i dont have to jack it to the moon to get the tires off smiling smiley It gives nothing up to the late models and may have an advantage with the camber gain the modern performance radial tires like. The early is lighter and smaller than a late and is a Blast to drive. The wheel tuck may happen if you go of the road sideways in the air and in the dirt !! If your worried about that put limiters on it . Have Fun

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: guthrie1068 ()
Date: May 12, 2022 11:35AM

Lots of ways to make improvements, here's how I did it.
[corvaircenter.com]

Chad Guthrie
Rives Junction, MI
'63 convertible

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: msal99 ()
Date: May 12, 2022 03:59PM

Bill that car has been a huge inspiration since I saw it in some groups. I am a little worried as our typical driving roads aren't always paved beautifully so a somewhat forgiving suspension setup is needed. Tuck is scary and I don't want to send myself off the cliffs that way.


guthrie, those 5 lug hubs are bolt on? And are you using the coils meant for mustang 2 suspension front and rear? Where did you ifnd infor for getting a disc back there?

Thanks!

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: guthrie1068 ()
Date: May 13, 2022 04:14AM

Those coilovers are made for Camaros and Novas, and required some fab work to bolt up, but not that much. Those hubs are a kit that Tom Knoblaugh made, and evidently he isn't in a huge hurry to make more, which is really too bad, because it is an awesome kit. The disc brakes were made by Leveque, and like the the front hubs, he isn't in a big hurry to make any more either. I suppose I got lucky when I scored the parts for the front and the back, but there is also several ways to convert the front to five lug and disc brakes.
Leveque told me a couple years ago that if I could find 10 people to buy rear disc kits he would make them again. I would think that the best way to do that would be to reach out to a club and see if there is enough interest.

Chad Guthrie
Rives Junction, MI
'63 convertible

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: guthrie1068 ()
Date: May 13, 2022 04:31AM

This link shows a picture of the changes I had to make to the front lower control arm.
[corvaircenter.com]

Chad Guthrie
Rives Junction, MI
'63 convertible

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: May 13, 2022 05:19AM

An alternative to disc would be to send a set of old brake shoes to Porterfield and have them reline them with the R4 compound ,they stop straight and for the street or Autocross I personally think they would be a great alternative

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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