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Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: April 21, 2013 05:33PM

I am trying to improve the handling of my 63 sedan. So far I have relocated the battery to the trunk, I have wider wheels and tires, I am installing disc brakes in all four corners and I am considering a front Addco sway bar. Are there any other things I can do besides swapping in newer suspension. I have also had the car professonially aligned.

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 21, 2013 05:41PM

What are you doing at the REAR? That is the problem area!!

Most just swap in a complete 64 rear susp. and the '64 Diff case.

But you can use limiting straps to keep the wheels from "tucking"..what Nader wrote about.... the front bar helps greatly.. .but you need to limit the movement for those extreme circumstances... IMO!

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: April 21, 2013 06:17PM

I have not really considered the rear besides the Levair disc brakes I am getting ready to install. The reason I started to considered the front bar is because I found this one on Summit. I have not heard much about limiting straps. After a quick Google search, I see how they would help the swing arm suspension. Where can I get some? Would they make a dramatic difference?
Summit EM Front Sway Bar

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 21, 2013 07:26PM

You'll need to make your own.

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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: April 21, 2013 07:41PM

If you can find one of the EMPI Camber compensator kits from the 60s you will notice a difference too. Someone here was thinking of reintroducing the kit but I haven't heard anything about it in a while now. Probably gave up because there isn't a huge amount of interest in them these days.

The 64 rear is probably your best bet although a fair amount of work. The transverse spring does NOT act in the same way as the camber compensator however, the 64 spring simply lowers the roll center of the rear of the car. You will need that big bar in the front to help too. HD shocks will help as well as quicken the steering to allow easy adjustment of direction during hard corners. It can be done, my 62 handles very well.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: April 21, 2013 08:47PM

I might add that optimal shock settings are, if I'm not mistaken, firm in the front and full soft in the rear.

As for optimums, swing axles respond the best to a "Z" bar, but it is a tricky setup on a streeter. The '64 uses the leaf to emulate the control of a Zbar (a sort of virtual Zbar, if you will), but really should have adjustable drop links to tune its action. There is a fellow in the 356 camp that does a tidy business selling this very enhancement. I'm surprised no one has picked up on this for 'Vairs, or maybe I've just missed it.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 21, 2013 08:49PM

Louie Lira has used one for years.... Seth will probably know of others...

It is an interesting setup.... thought I had a pic.. but cannot find it...

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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: spydergear ()
Date: April 22, 2013 12:31AM

The '64 rear suspension copies the Porsche Super90 rear suspension from 1960-1962 later continued on the 356SC to'65. The only major difference is the use of torsion bars on the 356. The design purpose is to reduce the rear roll stiffness. The idea is to allow the rear to roll instead of jacking. The problem I've witnessed at autocrosses, is that during several quick turns (esses) the rear can still jack and spin.

A z-bar is in no way the same as what is on the '64. The z-bar or Vic Skirmant's camber compensator, works the opposite of an anti-roll bar. That is, if one side of the rear suspension is compressed it actively raises the other side and vice versa. If the '64 leaf were coverted to do this, it would actually press against the rear springs instead of holding up much of the weight of the rear as it does on the '64 setup. It would be pulling away from the differential mount instead of pressing against it. This of course, would require much stiffer springs to hold the car up.

I too, have seen Louie Lira's car in action, and it handles incredibly well in an autocross (taking TToD). Another impressive EM is Vance Piper's coupe. It kept up with the Late Models at the Ventura Convention.

If anyone has the definitive setup for an Early Model, I'd like to hear about it also. I'm looking forward to the new edition of How to Hot Rod the Corvair.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: April 22, 2013 05:48AM

So if I should reduce the roll stiffness of the rear, wouldn't a sway bar in the back have an opposite effect of what I want?

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: April 22, 2013 04:29PM

Does anyone know where to get a z-bar for my car? Or have pics of rear suspensions with mods. Has anyone used adjustable coilovers on our cars?

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 22, 2013 04:42PM

Coil overs in an EM. not without extensive mods... not practical


"Z"-bar is just a simple Z

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: Spyderman64 ()
Date: April 22, 2013 04:58PM

A quick and dirty way to decamber the rear wheels is to clamp the rear coils with one of those kits available at most auto parts stores. Worked wonders on my '60.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: April 22, 2013 05:31PM

If you want a car that will handle well over a large variation of road conditions then Steve G is correct - use the 1964 setup including the unique springs and install a front sway bar from a 64.

If you want a track car then there are other options, but you end up tuning the car for a specific road surface and type of track. Not usually good for the variations on the street.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: April 22, 2013 05:58PM

Matt, that diagram is wrong. The ends of the z are the a-arm attachment points. The middle span of the Z is where the pivoting happens.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 22, 2013 06:09PM

I didn't specify... just a basic idea for him..

But the ones I've been around , Louie Lira and a few others years ago.... were pivoted on the body and attached at the A-arms.


We need to find a picture....

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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: April 22, 2013 06:28PM

You did specify, showing an end as attaching to the body. Anyway, here's a pic to show the behavior of a z bar:

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: DreamRyder1963 ()
Date: April 22, 2013 06:31PM

Pictures of someone's setup with a z bar would be great! For future reference if nothing else.

It sounds like the way to go is to get some HD shocks for the back, fab some limiting straps, add the front sway bar, and get or make a z bar.

Joseph Bates
1963 Corvair 700 sedan
1964 Corvair Monza Rat
2012 Mazda3 i Sport sedan
Corryton, TN
[www.dracoautodesigns.com]

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: April 22, 2013 06:35PM

oops let's try that again





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2013 06:36PM by mwr.

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: April 22, 2013 06:51PM

MWR.. who's car is that?


When the one wheel pushes up it pushes down on the opposite side?

My mind must be going....

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Improving EM Handling
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: April 22, 2013 07:00PM

I found it on the Blackhawk engineering site, only pic of a Z bar on anything Corvair powered I've found.

[www.blackhawkengr.com]

Yes you're correct, the ends of the z act opposite to each other when turning.

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