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KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 06, 2012 07:15PM

Please post ONE error and it's Corrected info per post.


Errors found in 1960-1969 Factory Manuals by Bob Helt

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2012 11:24AM by MattNall.

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LM differential Axle Flange torque
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 06, 2012 08:13PM

Posted by: cnicol (208.94.86.238)
Date: September 06, 2012 06:41AM

There's also the differential axle flange bolt torque. Listed at 100-150 ft/lbs, it should be more like 30 ft/lbs.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 06, 2012 08:15PM

Posted by: VegasVair (98.160.190.148)
Date: September 06, 2012 06:31AM




1965 Schematic for Tail lights wiring schematic has an error. the left tail light
and brake/turn signal wires are reversed.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 10:38AM

1966 SM SUPPLEMENT, Page 6-2

Timing for the 140 hp engine with auto & A/C should be 14 degrees BTDC
Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 10:46AM

1966 SM Supplement
Page specifications 3

Lobe lift is spec'd at 0.260 for the 180 hp emgine.
ir should be 0.249-0.250 inches

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 10:49AM

1969 SM supplement

Page 0-1 UNIT NUMBER IS SHOWN AS 100001

Should be 700001

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 10:52AM

1969 SM Supplement
page 0-5

Temperature range mark -30 deg is shown in the wrong location.
it should be one slot to the left of -20 instead of two slots shown

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 11:07AM

1969 SM Supplement

ages 12-1,12-11 and 12-13.
Key-in warning buzzer is shown in two different locations. Only one can be correct. Either the buzzers is in the horn relay or it is a separate unit.
Which is it?

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 11:11AM

1969 SM Supplement

Page specs-8

Dist # 1110454 is shown as having two different advance specs at 26 degrees.

4400 rpm which is correct and 3000 rpm which is wrong.

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Ed Dowds ()
Date: September 08, 2012 07:31PM

"1969 SM Supplement

ages 12-1,12-11 and 12-13.
Key-in warning buzzer is shown in two different locations. Only one can be correct. Either the buzzers is in the horn relay or it is a separate unit.
Which is it?"

The buzzer is separate unit under the dash.

Ed
Hamilton, NJ
66 500 rear 4.3 V6 Corvair
69 350/350 TH Camaro was RS
30 Model A Ford Streetrod 350/400 TH
88 Celebrity Wagon (Daily Driver)

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: September 08, 2012 08:14PM

"1969 SM Supplement

ages 12-1,12-11 and 12-13.
Key-in warning buzzer is shown in two different locations. Only one can be correct. Either the buzzers is in the horn relay or it is a separate unit.
Which is it?"

The buzzer is separate unit under the dash.


That makes page 12-1 in error and the wiring pages correct. Same for the 1968 SM supplement, page 12-1.
Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 12, 2012 11:35AM

SEE TOP POSTING! for link


Bob Helt has a great list for 1960-64 errors.


65-9 coming soon!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 14, 2012 11:28AM

Just uploaded a new release of Errors found in 1960-69 Shop Manuals.

Please feel free to add more / make corrections.

Known Errors in 60-69 Shop Manuals by Bob Helt - In our FAQ's!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 21, 2015 11:50AM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just uploaded a new release of Errors found in
> 1960-69 Shop Manuals.
>
> Please feel free to add more / make corrections.
>
> Known Errors in 60-69 Shop Manuals by Bob Helt -
> In our FAQ's!

Matt - Has Bob Helt's manual error list been updated? The list you post INCORRECTLY says page 6-2 of the 1966 manual timing S/B 14 BTC degrees for 110-PG-A/C cars instead of the stated 24 BTC degrees. In fact in 2012 Bob Helt published an article stating that it had been determined the late 1965 and all 1966 110-PG-A/C cars got 95HP heads and the FACTORY timing was revised from 14BTS to 24BTC degrees. So the "error" listed is NOT an error. 24BTC is correct in the 1966 manual.

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 21, 2015 12:35PM

Get with Bob on that..

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: February 21, 2015 02:08PM

[corvaircenter.com]

Well I don't know the exact answer to this, but there is a huge differance between to 61 and 65/66 SM. I didn't find anything about on Bobs list.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: February 22, 2015 06:58AM

66vairman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MattNall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Just uploaded a new release of Errors found in
> > 1960-69 Shop Manuals.
> >
> > Please feel free to add more / make
> corrections.
> >
> > Known Errors in 60-69 Shop Manuals by Bob Helt
> -
> > In our FAQ's!
>
> Matt - Has Bob Helt's manual error list been
> updated? The list you post INCORRECTLY says page
> 6-2 of the 1966 manual timing S/B 14 BTC degrees
> for 110-PG-A/C cars instead of the stated 24 BTC
> degrees. In fact in 2012 Bob Helt published an
> article stating that it had been determined the
> late 1965 and all 1966 110-PG-A/C cars got 95HP
> heads and the FACTORY timing was revised from
> 14BTS to 24BTC degrees. So the "error" listed is
> NOT an error. 24BTC is correct in the 1966 manual.


Yes, I am the self-appointed keeper of the Shop Manuals errors list. So any additions or corrections should be directed to me. Thanks.


First, about the spec for the initial timing for the 1965-66 110hp engines with both PG and A/C, the SMs says 24 deg before.....

I think that this is an error. Yes, this engine uses the 95hp heads and the same distributor as the non-A/C engines. But 24 makes no sense. PG and A/C is a heat and load sensitive situation and Corvairs are very sensitive to spark iming under these kinds of situations. To take a 110 hp engine with PG, spec is 14 deg. change heads to 95's and timing really doesn't need changine, or maybe a slight increase due to lower CR. Add A/C and both the heat load and the hp load increases on the engine. Answer is to REDUCE the timing, not increase it.

Look at it another way. With the same distributor as the non-A/C version, providing 20 deg at 4800rpm, the total then for the A/C engine at spec would be 44 deg at 4800. No other engine uses that much advance and as I see it is a recipie for disasterous detonation.

Therefore I still maintain that 24 deg is in error and the real number is 14 deg plus or minus.

Now to J.O.'s comment. YES, the 1961 SM is very different from the 1965-66. But I fail to see the reasons for that comment. To what features are you referring for that comparison?

Yours for accuracy.
Bob Helt

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: February 22, 2015 07:27AM

Bob, its the torque spec for the nuts on the four studs holding the rear engine mount. Here is the entire discussion if you missed it.

[corvaircenter.com]

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: February 22, 2015 10:01AM

OK, J.O. got it.

First off, over the many years rebuilding engines to keep my five kids all mobile, I developed a sense of how much torque should be applied in any situation. And thus, I developed a special tool....my calibrated right arm. This got me thru many a task, not being able to afford an actual torque wrench back then.

Now with my comment out of the way, in my opinion, one has to sort of interpret all SM data. A lot is written in code it seems . The SMs are referencing the rear mounting bracket. The reader has to read between the lines so to speak and determine which end of the bracket the author means. Looking at the four nuts and how they are applied, it likely would be apparent the 40 or 45 or even 50 ft.-lbs would be excessive and thus either there is an error OR they are talking about the other end.....which now makes sense. Yes they mean the rear motor mount end. Certainly they wouldn't really mean the 4 nuts when the spec for all the bolts holding the rear housing are 7-13.

So what is the spec for the 4 nuts, well here is where the "code" part comes in. It's the skid plate torque. Yes skid plate and rear mount bracket are two different animals but you have to learn the code. The skid plate fits over the 4 studs. After all these SMs were NOT written for you and me. But for the Dealer mechanics who are code talkers. Why is that? Well look at the skid plate. A small part made from thin sheet metal. Try to visualize how and where one would ACTUALLY apply any of these higher values of torque just to the skid plate? but it is to where the skid plate is. Of course it's ridiculous. Thus they are speaking in code again when they say skid plate and mean rear bracket to engine.

So it looks like 15-20 ft-lbs nails it.


And yes this should all be added to the Errors list.

Bob Helt

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Re: KNOWN FACTORY MANUAL ERRORS with corrected info /values.
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 22, 2015 10:01AM

Thanks for the reply Bob. I was basing my question on your article in which you did say 24BTC for the A/C, PG, 110 with 95 heads seems excessive even though a 24 degree timing tab was installed and other Chevrolet documents specify 24BTC for that engine.

The 1966 A/C, PG, 110 with 95 heads drivetrain is rare considering how few Corvairs were sold with A/C. Has anyone ever had a car like this and what timing was found to work well?

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