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valve Lifters??
Posted by: vaporloc ()
Date: December 27, 2006 02:44AM

This is just a general lifter question. I was reading in the clark's corvair technical section about not soaking lifters in oil before you install them. I have a Haynes service manual for my 88 Jeep Grandwagoneer with a 360 Amc engine. The book say's to soak lifters in oil before installing them. Also I have a book for my 94 Dodge Dakota with a 5.2 (318 cu.in.) magnum engine with stock roller cam lifters. This book is from Chiltons and say's to soak lifters in oil before you install them. My 66 turbo engine is running perfect and I hope to keep it that way but if I ever did have to tear it down, what are your thoughts on soaking lifters in oil???

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 27, 2006 03:43AM

I always soak in ATF.....and pump them up hard.......makes adjusting super accurate...

And if you don't wait weeks to Fire the engine.....you get to crank a few Rev's before compression sets in...

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: December 27, 2006 05:01AM

The 1965 Corvair Shop manual says to fill the lifters with oil before installing them.
Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: "UNSAFE" ()
Date: December 27, 2006 06:49AM

I used to soak my lifters but most of the cam/lifter companys nowadays specifically recommend not to.

From crane cams __

"Many people mistakenly believe that hydraulic lifters must be soaked in oil overnight and be hand pumped up with a pushrod before installing into a new engine, however this is not necessary. In fact, this could cause the lifter to act as a "solid" and prevent obtaining proper preload.
What is very necessary is the priming of the entire engine's oil system before starting up a new engine for the first time. This is done by turning the oil pump with a drill motor to force oil throughout the entire engine. "

This does conflict with Matt's statement though.


"UNSAFE"
Kevin Willson
65 Monza
Juneau. Alaska



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2006 06:55AM by "UNSAFE".

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Re: valve Lifters?? Matt's way
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 27, 2006 07:26AM

Different strokes for different folks....both work...

I've seen an awful lot of mis - adjusted Hydraulics in my life...and not only Corvairs..

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: 4carbcorvair ()
Date: December 27, 2006 12:48PM

I've heard the same. IIRC, my new lifters came with a note stating not to soak them. Clarks also suggests NOT soaking them in oil as it may bind the lifter. [www.corvair.com]

--------------------------------
Ronnie
Southern Maine.
[www.dirigocorvairs.com]
66 Corsa Convertible, 140, 4sp.




It doesn't leak, it's marking it's territory.

A mirror is a reflection of the miles travelled.

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 27, 2006 03:47PM

4 carb sez Clarks sez:
Clarks also suggests NOT soaking them in oil as it may bind the lifter.
================================================================

I'd THINK about that statement........

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Crawford Rose ()
Date: January 13, 2007 01:53AM

Know what the problem with this is? The shop manual contradicts this by affirmatively recommending that the lifters be filled manually before installing. Crane's and Clark's might have had a problem with people doing it improperly and didn't want to have problems with returns of oily lifters. Why would anyone not follow the shop manual on this recommendation?
Crawford

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Lon Wall ()
Date: January 13, 2007 08:35PM

Not prepump the lifters? Why not? Crawford is right - the manual says it's ok - that doesn't make it necessary but it certainly doesn't make it wrong.
I think that I have considerably more driving/repair experience with Corvairs than Uncle Cal. Doesn't he drive a Riviera? (Heh heh heh) Unca Lonald

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Re: valve Lifters?? GOING BY THE BOOK ????
Posted by: "UNSAFE" ()
Date: January 13, 2007 09:28PM

>>>Not prepump the lifters? Why not? <<<

Quote from Crane Cams >>>

"Do Hydraulic Lifters Need to be Primed with Oil?

Many people mistakenly believe that hydraulic lifters must be soaked in oil overnight and be hand pumped up with a pushrod before installing into a new engine, however this is not necessary.

****In fact, this could cause the lifter to act as a solid lifter and prevent obtaining proper preload.*****

What is very necessary is the priming of the entire engine?s oil system before starting up a new engine for the first time. This is done by turning the oil pump with a drill motor to force oil throughout the entire engine. " <<<

End of quote.

Improper preload from not bleeding down which might hold a valve open is Crane's reasoning.

I used to soak my lifters and never had a problem but for the last few years I have not been soaking my lifters and still have not had a problem.

I do always prime the oil system on a new motor as Crane recommends above and it seems like priming the lifters separately would be redundant but likely not harmful.

I also coat the lifter foot liberally with camshaft lube.

It does seem like it would be better to opt on the side of too loose when first started than too tight from the oil in the lifter being overfull. Either way the lifter will eventually balance itself out anyway.

If you feel better pumping them up, go ahead.

"The times, they are a changing" (Dylan)


****NOW TELL ME THIS****

--- if everyone is going to follow the shop manual ------

----Why are so many people trying to adjust the lifter preload with the motor running ????

I never saw that method mentioned in the shop manual ! ggg

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Re: valve Lifters?? GOING BY THE BOOK ????
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: January 13, 2007 10:17PM

I also have done it both ways with no problem, but for people without experience adjusting new hydraulic lifters there would be less chance of valve train damage during cranking/start-up if the engine is assembled with empty lifters.

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: steve goodman ()
Date: January 13, 2007 11:52PM

Does it make that much difference, either fill before or pre-oil and fill then.

Whether the lifter is full of oil makes no difference for valve adjustment, you still turn 1/2 turn pre-load as you assemble the engine.

Best, Steve

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: January 14, 2007 01:22AM

I have to laugh. This reminds me of the story about the college student who when taking a final exam in physics was asked to describe how a barometric-type air pressure gauge could be used to measure the height of a building. Apparently the prof wanted air pressure readings at ground and building top to be converted into building height. But this student, recognizing this, was determined to correctly answer the problem without using the prof's methods. So the student responded with several alternate methods such as letting the gauge down from the building's top on a string and then measuring the string's length. The article hit the new's because the prof failed him on his answers.

The idea was that the student, while correct, failed to convince the prof he had learned the subject matter being taught.

OK, what has this got to do with lifters? I don't know. It just seemed to fit because there are several good reasons to prefill lifters that seem to be overlooked.

let me explain.

The first good reason to prefill lifters is that NO Lube oil will reach the rocker box thru that lifter until the lifter is filled with oil. NONE! So if no lifters are prefilled, then no oil is going to get to the rocker box until some lifters get filled with oil. And that can take several minutes or even longer. All that time the rockers and valves are operating on whatever oil was initially on them. There's going to be unwanted wear during those several minutes. Not to mention the considerable knocking and noise caused by the excessive cam-lifter clearances until the lifters pump up. Is that good?

And lifters can be so easily pumped up by using a trigger-type oil can with the tip inserted into the lifter's side hole.

And don't expect to fill the lifters by running the oil pump with your electric drill either. Sure MAYBE, some oil might fill the lifters if you run the pump for 20-30 minutes (just like when it takes this long with a running engine). But the problem is one of hit-or-miss. How do you know if any oil is getting into the lifters? Maybe some. Maybe none.

But that's not all. When installing lifters, you must do an initial (static) adjustment of the lifter. Unless you are experienced in making this adjustment, it is all too easy to totally miss the zero lash (ZL) point unless the lifter is fully pumped up. There just isn't any feedback at ZL on a lifter not pumped up. That would seem to be a major concern for newbies and relatively inexperienced mechanics who might easilly miss the ZL point and tighten until the internal piston is pushed to the bottom of its travel. With a fully pumped up lifter the ZL point is obvious (at least far more obvious than when not pumped up).

With these two major concerns vs installing non-pumped up lifters, it would seem obvious that prefilling lifters is the only way to go for most of us. Why would you do it any other way?

Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Crawford Rose ()
Date: January 14, 2007 09:01AM

Actually, Kevin the 1964 supplement DOES have the procedure for equalizing the tappets with the engine running. Check it out.
Crawford

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: "UNSAFE" ()
Date: January 14, 2007 12:24PM

>>>Unless you are experienced in making this adjustment, it is all too easy to totally miss the zero lash (ZL) point unless the lifter is fully pumped up. There just isn't any feedback at ZL on a lifter not pumped up<<<

I don't understand how oil in the lifter can affect ZERO lash. If you are pushing against oil it should be more difficult to find zero lash because the oil will bleed off as you tighten the nut. Zero lash is when the plunger is up against the retaining ring,just like when you take them out of the box. This is the same regardless of the amount of oil in the lifter. For people that have a hard time "feeling" zero lash I suggest using a thin piece of paper or Saran Wrap between the rocker and valve stem. The few thousandths thickness of the paper is not enough to affect anything.

Setting the preload forces the plunger down between .020 & .060 below the retainer ring so that the plunger won't damage the retainer.

This is when, if the lifter is overfull it causes the valve to stay open until the oil bleeds off. The valves staying open cause the engine to have decreased vacuum and run poorly or backfire.

This is when many people think the preload adjustment is not right and they begin readjusting their valves to get the motor to run right. Then they shut it off and when they restart it the next time the lifters are all clattering and they start readjusting the preload again and again.

Yes, it takes time for lifters to pump up but it also takes time for them to bleed down.

I'm really not trying to be a smart arse but I don't think having oil to the rocker box in the first minutes of running is that important. doesn't everyone lube these parts with some type of assembly lube that clings to those parts long enough for oil to pump up. It was before my day but I think in the old days you had to get out and lube the rockers with an oil can. Many times the rockers were exposed to the elements too.

>>>>>And don't expect to fill the lifters by running the oil pump with your electric drill either. Sure MAYBE, some oil might fill the lifters if you run the pump for 20-30 minutes (just like when it takes this long with a running engine). But the problem is one of hit-or-miss. How do you know if any oil is getting into the lifters? Maybe some. Maybe none.<<<

Bob, I DO expect my lifters to pump up when I use the drill. I make several partial turns of the crankshaft as I am priming the oil system to be sure and I can easily observe and confirm the fact that oil is getting to the rockers as I watch it drip out of the rockers. This is "how *I* know oil is getting to the lifters".

>>>Why would you do it any other way? <<<<

For the reasons already stated.

>>>>Does it make that much difference, either fill before or pre-oil and fill then.*****Whether the lifter is full of oil makes no difference for valve adjustment******, you still turn 1/2 turn pre-load as you assemble the engine.
<<<

Not really that much difference as it seems we are all in agreement on but there is some difference. If you turn 1/2 turn and the lifter is completely full of oil it may cause the valve to not close all of the way until the oil bleeds out. If the lifter is NOT full it will not hold the valves open but it may clatter for a minute or two until the lifters fill to the proper amount which will be less volume of oil than if you prelubed the lifters.

A lifter can as easily be damaged by the plunger contacting the retainer as by the plunger bottoming out.

Although it's not a factor with our Vair motors, some motors have such tight clearances that the valves could impinge (hit) on the piston crown if the lifter was overfull to start with. This can cause mucho damage.

>>>Actually, Kevin the 1964 supplement DOES have the procedure for equalizing the tappets with the engine running<<<

I don't have any early model manuals to look at but it makes me wonder why they omitted that procedure in later manuals. Maybe they determined that it shouldn't be done that way by 65. ggg

Again, I think we are all in agreement that it doesn't usually make that much difference but there really are some reasons as have been already stated.

I do think that the majority of problems we hear about on this forum are caused by improper understanding or procedures regarding lifter preload (valve adjustment).
I also think that most camshaft failure is caused by improper initial preload and happens in the first few minutes of initial start up.

Tip: using a positive locking type rocker stud nut makes finding zero lash much easier as you can turn the nut by hand and it becomes very obvious by the feel of turning the nut when zero lash is reached.

FWIW - I always used to prime my lifters and adjust preload with the motor running and didn't have any problems except often the lifters would clatter when restarted. Probably only from me not giving enough time to equalize.

It just seems so much easier and more accurate to adjust without the motor running.
You could adjust solid lifters with the motor running too but I don't hear about too many people trying it. It's the same thing except there is clearance instead of preload ( opposite of clearance) and it's predetermined amount.

Like love-making-- I'd still rather be a learner than a teacher ! ggg


"UNSAFE"
Kevin Willson
65 Monza
Juneau. Alaska

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Brett Wall ()
Date: January 14, 2007 01:54PM

Lon Wall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that I have considerably more
> driving/repair experience with Corvairs than Uncle
> Cal. Doesn't he drive a Riviera? (Heh heh heh)
> Unca Lonald
-------------------------------------------------------

Oh man... here we go...



____________
00 [__] 00
-o====o-

Brett Wall
Nashville TN

"Ensure that the path of least resistance is not you..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2007 01:54PM by Brett Wall.

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: 4carbcorvair ()
Date: January 14, 2007 02:31PM

It's snowing here.


grinning smiley

--------------------------------
Ronnie
Southern Maine.
[www.dirigocorvairs.com]
66 Corsa Convertible, 140, 4sp.




It doesn't leak, it's marking it's territory.

A mirror is a reflection of the miles travelled.

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: Lon Wall ()
Date: January 14, 2007 10:53PM

Brett Wall sez

"Oh man... here we go..."

Whatever do youse mean? By the way, I have a brother named Brent Wall. Now I'm getting paranoid.....must be all the ice and freezing temps here. Should go up and visit Kevin just to warm up. Unca Lonald

PS - To post here you have to type in the code containing a car part. All I could find was "shallow dimple lifter". Hope that works. Let me know if you don't get this message.

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Engine noise at startup and after during idle
Date: January 04, 2012 03:33PM

This will be lenghty as I; like to provide all pertinent information for a knowlegdeable response. I did search the Corvair Phorum and landed her.

1962 Corvair Monza Coupe 3 Spd 102 engine.

What caused the problem?
Being young at heart and stupid in old age; I'm 72:
I decide to see what my Monza can do. I took it up tp 92 mph tops and held it there for anout 15 mins. AS I approached home and reduced speed significantly, I noticed a ticking noise in the engine that wasn't there before. I immedidtely
assumed it was a rod bearing as the same thing happened to me in my previous 6 cyl 58 Chevy that burned out a rod bearing. When turned off for a few minutes to examine the engine compartment for anything overly obviuous and then started it up again, the noise was very loud; more like a clatering. Took a long time to calm down but not totally like oringinal before this.



I disassembed the top end of the Corvair engine (engine not removed from vehicle) exposing the crankshaft etc. Rotating the crankshaft back and forth on the pulley using the belt; the only noise I could detect was crank end play of '010" but the noise was a clunk not a click The rod and crank bearings all looked tight as I could not see any detectable movement to indicate looseness.
I didnt check piston slap nor wristpin looseness.
I did a compression check and all pistons were above 130 to 170 psi. So valve seats are okay.

With spark plugs out and using a remote starter switch so I can bury my head in the engine compartment, I rotated the engine with no detectable engine noise not even crank end play. I replaced the spark plugs and repeated the spin test again with no notice able engine noise. Have to assume wristpins are okay.
Oiling is very adequate during these tests as oil is visibly ozzing out of all visible bearing surfaces. Also the oil light never came on during idle so oil pressure must be okay.

After searching
, I decided to pursue hydraulic valve lifter collapse but the search did not yield anything much on collapsed valve lifters. So I decided to post to get the best opinions from the most experienced and knowledgeable sources. Lon of Corvair Underground suggests valve train issues and po po'd rod,crank bearing.

I'm about to reassemble the top side; after adding Rislon,
Valve Medic or BG MOA to see if the condition corrects it self after 15 mins of running. If it does'nt, then I will address the the valve train from the rocker arm cover , then to the oil pan cavity. But before I start on this venture, I am looking for opinions, suggestions and recommendations from you the experts. "Not fixing" is not an option.

If need be, I will rebuild a complete spare 102, 1963 engine (Siezed). If I rebuild, I would like to up performance slightly with out extravagant cost. Stroking is out. Turbo charging is out. .030" over bore is an option. Would like to continue to use twin carbs as is. Will consider milling heads to up compression ratio. I believe current CR is 9:1. OPinions', recommendations and suggetions are solicited.

Recall; I posted a dual exhaust sound track with pics using HD MC 1250 mufflers. At 60 mph, the sound set up a "Drone" which was very annoying so I swtiched back to to the stock version. Out side sound of the dual was very different, distinct and appealing. I also posted my car on the members cars pictures.

Thank you all for taking the time to read this long post but I hope it helps you to help me arrive at a valide solution to this challenge. I love my Corvair Monza Coupe; over and above my '65 Mustang.

Wisecracks also appreciated. Agood sense of humour is a real asset these days.

Happy Motoring New Year 2012 to all!

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Re: valve Lifters??
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: January 04, 2012 04:36PM

Steve G. has the correct answer. With the lifter on the lowest cam spot adjust to zero lash and then add 1/2 turn (clockwise turn on the rocker nut).

This is more difficult to do with an "empty" lifter as you must rely on the lifter seat return spring which offers poor tactile feedback to find zero lash.

While it is necessary to do a manual or static adjustment after an engine rebuild assembly, adjusting the valves with the engine running is easier because you don't have to verify the lifter is on the lowest portion of the cam lobe. You simply slowly back off the rocker nut with the engine running until you hear a clicking sound then SLOWLY (to allow the lifter to bleed down) tighten down the rocker nut 1/2 turn. (you can go up to 1 turn if you want to allow for new cam/lifter wear in). Needless to say a set of modified valve covers is helpful to prevent an oil mess.

As far as the cam companies versus the GM manual - with a stock cam it's very difficult to "bottom" a valve into a piston if the initial adjustment is off (unless it's WAY off). With a high lift cam the initial adjustment is critical since there is less room for error and it can take a pre oiled lifter several cycles to "bleed" down which could result in a bent valve or pushrod if they valve is "smacked" by the piston.

As with most things - careful and accurate work is the answer on setting up the intial valve lash - oil filled lifters or dry lifters.

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