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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: March 28, 2012 02:22AM

bill darcy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have abundant domestic sources for oil and
> natural gas,what we lack is the will and courage
> to exploit it.We are being held hostage by the
> political climate of nations that wish to do us
> harm and the speculation of forthcoming events
> which we cannot fully control.

I don't have nearly the time to fully explore everything that is wrong with this idea, but will summarize with:

1) the people drilling for oil here in the US are not interested in selling oil to us for a penny less than the people who are selling it to us now. In fact they are some of the people who are selling it to us now. The notion that domestic drilling will decrease prices is in direct conflict with the reality of 'the market' -i.e it is a global market, and as above is driven in large part by speculation rather than supply. Profit motive trumps everything.

2) the US government doesn't have much to do with how much oil costs, and you wouldn't want them to have that sort of influence because that would be 'government getting in the way of business' which is 'bad'. The US already subsidized oil production through a variety of means and well, what has that done to prices? Basically nothing.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: Marco_a_p ()
Date: March 28, 2012 02:27AM

The more we find in our "own backyard" the more I like my own delusional conspiracy theory......horde it all and let the rest of them burn up their supplies and then when no else has it..... we will be kings of the world! HA! winking smiley

"We now revert from our tin foil hat moment and return you the normal broadcast that is already in progress....."

Marco Padilla - Realtor BRE#01944189

Century 21 Crest
1501 West Magnolia Blvd
Burbank, CA 91506
213-272-3239 Cell



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 02:28AM by Marco_a_p.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: dan giannotti ()
Date: March 28, 2012 02:33AM

That Energy Secretary is a total joke, you have to wonder how that Bozo
even got the Title?

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 66cv8 ()
Date: March 28, 2012 02:46AM

bill darcy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We are only powerless because we've allowed
> ourselves to be manipulated by folks who don't
> give a rats A$$ about what the average Joe has to
> pay.

Yes Bill we are powerless. Can you think of how we can change this cause I sure as heck can't.

Our illustrious energy secretary has stated
> numerous times that he thinks we should be paying
> European prices for gas

Can anyone say "Global economy" sure I knew ya could, It's a beautiful day in the global neighborhood a beautiful day to pay you could whould you be mine could you be mine won't you pay my Ferarri off.

Joe

66 500 Crown 350/4 on road
66 Corsa Convertible 140/4 rough
69 Monza Convertible 140/4 in progress (original 95/3)
Nu Joisey

" A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING"

"STUPID is the NEW SMART"

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: bill darcy ()
Date: March 28, 2012 03:10AM

A 4 billion dollar oil subsidy is a drop in the bucket compared to the added expenses mandated by federal regulations and as such will have little effect.To say that supply and demand won't influence prices is akin to denying the laws of gravity.If we were to change our energy policy and increase supply, world prices would also drop if they wanted to compete.Suppose we could supply all our domestic needs and 20% of China's,think OPEC wouldn't drop prices to stay competitive?Of course they would.Automobiles were once only for the well to do,but when Henry expanded supply prices plummeted.We are paying now for our failure to keep government in check.DC already is in the way of business and has been for decades.What is also troubling is the cost to the economy.When gas prices rise folks simply have less to spend in other areas.At the present some economists set the number at 200 billion that has been diverted to fuel in lieu of other consumer goods.Like it or not America runs on oil and will for the foreseeable future.How we obtain it and from where will dictate price.

In the Hub City, Belen NM

Lead from behind..... get left in the dust
"I have not failed I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work" Thomas Edison

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: March 28, 2012 04:12AM

bill darcy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To say that supply and demand won't
> influence prices is akin to denying the laws of
> gravity.If we were to change our energy policy and
> increase supply, world prices would also drop if
> they wanted to compete.

Compete with what? The US has a very small share of global oil reserves and US oil companies have no incentive whatsoever to sell oil at a discount, not even to Americans. The answer to your point is a blanket no.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: bill darcy ()
Date: March 28, 2012 05:01AM

You have not been paying attention.Latest estimates and studies have clearly shown that we have WAY more oil than was previousy thought.The old line used by anti drilling folks that we only have 2% of the worlds reserves is misleading and refers to what has been developed not what's still in the ground.Many oil executives have stated that we have more untapped oil than Saudi Arabia.Don't believe me,research it yourself and try to prove me wrong.

In the Hub City, Belen NM

Lead from behind..... get left in the dust
"I have not failed I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work" Thomas Edison

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: j3m ()
Date: March 28, 2012 05:21AM

Short term (within the next 5 to 6 years): Ain't Nothing We Can Do.

You can't go back to how it was in 1972 or 1965 when the suburbs of large cities were right at the perimeter of the outer city limits. Today, most live out farther (in what was once farmland in 1985) from the city in burbs that sprouted up between 1989 and 1998 when gasoline costs were near historical lows.
A 40 mile commute into the city, wasn't so bad, as gas costs were of no concern.
Witness too, the vehicles from all automakers during this period, were far more gas guzzling as hp output was selling point, and economy was not on anyone's radar. The SUV craze began and bigger was better, suddenly it was again like the late 50's and 60's in this regard.

Take someone living in Atlanta. Nobody lives close. My brother and his wife live in a very large house out in NW Atlanta that they built in 1993, having previously owned a large home 3 miles closer to their first home in Marietta each time moving farther out. Other less affluent burbs were also farther away as newer translated to better properties, location, location, location for better schools, etc. The trade-off is now for some that don't have the "budget" to swing the higher costs to commute. It's like this in my opinion and this might sound harsh but anyway, if you don't have the budget to handle the increased gasoline costs: "Why in hell are you choosing to drive a $35,000+ vehicle that gets 17mpg?" I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for idiots that aren't responsible enough to realize the importance of prioritizing things in their family's budget. The same goes for the idiot who wants to be "flash" so he buys more car than he can afford and then trades it in when its three years old for another brand new one. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with purchasing new cars or expensive cars if you like to, but you need to have the budget(means) to do so.
I'm well off but I didn't get there overnight or by being stupid in managing what was earned. Some people don't get it. Nobody cares about the car that you drive. You gotta live within your means. Listen, if you can't handle the changes in cost of filling your tank, you should have been driving a used econobox that gets 35-40mpg that is fully paid for and not something that is leased for $570 a month that gets 15mpg. Sh--, what are these idiots gonna do when we have another cold winter and their furnace quits and needs immediate replacement and its Dec 31st and 12F outside?

You've got to walk before you can run. You've got to provide for your family and basic necessities, food, shelter and a quality education for your children, before you can play "big spender".
I'm amazed every time I see one of the local news reporters on the 6:25 AM break in the early Today show, where the reporter is on the scene at gas pumps showing that prices have risen from two days before and are in the process of interviewing some 28 year old Wal-Mart employee, who is driving a 2009 Silverado pick-up and complaining that it takes an enormous amount of cash to fill the tank. The 28 yr old dope, further states that he is cutting back his driving but he says he is having to fill the tank every 7 days and says he is already behind on the car payments because of rising gas prices. What an idiot! Nobody forced the dope to buy the 2009 Silverado. Again....responsibility.
There comes a time when we can't blame our own stupidity on something else.

Hey, I saw that someone mentioned they were "MATTING" it. Matt, I would take that as a compliment if I were you. It is called being smart.
Smart is knowing that you don't need to spend a fortune for transportation.
There is a fine skill of realizing WHEN to replace a vehicle before costs/downtime become a serious hassle.
Once, you get to the point where you have the disposable income for hobbies/toys that can get costly, enjoy them. Keep the Mrs. happy always. Always, let her have the nicest car that yall have, or the newest. Just remember the more that yall have in checkbook (pocket, bank, stock portfolio,dividends/unearned income coming in...etc) the more opportunities that yall will have to take those nice little trips where your passports get stamped in numerous countries.
Gordon Gekko commented "money never sleeps, pal" in "WALL STREET (1987). That is certainly true. You gotta see to it that you don't outlive your money. You've got to able to provide for a decent quality of life once you retire, unless you're planning (or must) work until you kick the bucket, just to make ends meet.

Matt and others commenting that it is foolish to replace a perfectly good, paid for 15mpg vehicle with a newer one/new one that one must fork out some serious dough for, is absolutely right.
You get the most use that you can out of the existing vehicle that you can and then when it becomes clear that you are capable and it becomes cost effective to trade-up to a newer/new much more fuel efficient vehicle, then do so. You'd be an Idiot though if your next vehicle that you purchase also gets similar MPG as your current one. (EXAMPLE 2008 gas prices rose above $4, then dropped to $2....many idiots that are the same ones complaining about high gas prices bought 2009 Silverados and other low MPG vehicles)

It isn't the fault of the Oil Companies. They aren't some wicked, evil empire, that controls pricing. The Oil Companies are you and me, if you happen to be a stockholder, or happen to have any Mutual fund/company 401k, or lucky to have a defined benefit pension plan before those were largely replaced by 401k type plans. You've got certain places on earth where the oil is plentiful and it is easy to extract (thus less costly) than other areas where deep salt-water drilling is much more costly. Add to that dangerous areas, like Nigerian coast where bandits/pirates break into the pipeline and steal crude and cause leaks. You've got Iran which produces 20% of the World's supply. A huge portion of the world's supply is in the dessert sands of volatile countries neighboring Iran.
Middle Eastern oil is the world's cheapest to extract and produce, plus they have the largest supply and remaining unextracted oil reserves.
China isn't the nation of bicyclers as it was when President Nixon visted there 40 years ago. The USA is not a creditor nation like it was then. We are a debtor nation. Currency swings in the dollar, or even continued devaluation of the dollar, relative to other world currencies can and will make world commodities like Crude Oil significantly more expensive.
Essentially there is nothing that we can do, except perhaps reduce consumption.
If world consumption were significantly reduced than prices would decline some and stabilize price to some degree. Short of that happening, I would agree that over the next decade that Crude Oil prices will not decline significantly and may see a sustained gradual increase, year over year, as China's exploding growth shows no sign of slowing their increased consumption.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: Aardvair ()
Date: March 28, 2012 06:26AM

Gas prices may fluctuate, but will never come back down again. Oils our biggest monetary export and with the demand rising in China and other countries where bicycles used to be the primary transportation the people who own the oil-British Petroleum, Tesaro, Shell,etc.-sell to who pays the most. Doesn't matter how much we drill here it just provides the oil companies more product to sell where ever they can get the most for it. Maybe we need to buy bicycles.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: MonzACT ()
Date: March 28, 2012 06:52AM

Macav

Moving back to your original question, wait for the Focus ST - you'll love it! You'll go looking for roundabouts to see how fast you can go around them smiling bouncing smiley. My 2008 XR5 (= ST) has the Volvo 5 cylinder turbo engine which is a blast but only gets 11.5 l/100 km (20.5 mpg) around town. The new 4 cylinder turbo is reputed to be way more economical.

Chris

Chris Gallagher
Melbourne, Australia
1964 Monza coupé

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: mwr ()
Date: March 28, 2012 07:58AM

bill darcy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You have not been paying attention.Latest
> estimates and studies have clearly shown that we
> have WAY more oil than was previousy thought.The
> old line used by anti drilling folks that we only
> have 2% of the worlds reserves is misleading and
> refers to what has been developed not what's still
> in the ground.Many oil executives have stated that
> we have more untapped oil than Saudi Arabia.Don't
> believe me,research it yourself and try to prove
> me wrong.

No, educate me and post a link instead of pulling stuff out of your hat and thinking I'm going to do work for you.

Please also note that untapped oil is a tricky business. Reserves fluctuate with prices, i.e. if a barrel of oil goes up to a certain level, available reserves actually go up since only then does it become economically viable to extract many of them (deep sea offshore, tar sands, oil shale, etc.). By the way, do you see the trend in this scenario, which is that difficult to extract reserves only become economically viable when oil prices RISE.

In the meantime some light reading [minnesota.publicradio.org]

Be sure to follow the link to the analysis of 36 years of gas prices versus domestic drilling, but in the spirit if doing stuff for you I'll post a direct link myself:

[www.documentcloud.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 08:00AM by mwr.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: jimmyo ()
Date: March 28, 2012 11:09AM

I given up, all policy is made to benefit the wealthy. The rest of us just get enough to keep us from full revolt. The oil price formula is it will be as high as we're willing to pay. If gas gets so high that people use less, then the price will go down just enough till we go back to our old ways.

Jim O'Connor
45 miles north of The Bronx, N.Y.
1962 Greenbrier 110 4spd
1964 Monza Convertible 110 PG
"Wherever you go....There you are"


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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 4carbcorvair ()
Date: March 28, 2012 12:25PM

Gas prices go up instantly with huge jumps, nO matter what was actually paid for the fuel that was already purchased days ago and is already in the tank. When it comes to dropping the price, it's a penny at a time....

--------------------------------
Ronnie
Southern Maine.
[www.dirigocorvairs.com]
66 Corsa Convertible, 140, 4sp.




It doesn't leak, it's marking it's territory.

A mirror is a reflection of the miles travelled.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: March 28, 2012 12:35PM

Greed Greed Greed! Thats all it is! Oil companies Getting rich and we are Getting poor,,,they have us over a Barrel!!(of Oil) Every time they raise the price a penny they make millions,,so they raise it 10 cents and make billions! They know we will buy it at any price,,need a couple summer homes? Raise the price of gas and buy a 100!!

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 1963gp ()
Date: March 28, 2012 12:53PM

Hey,I am Matting it built a 230k 2 dr TDI vw golf that now is creeping up on 300k miles. Get 52 mpg hwy 46 in town. Hot rodded it with big injectors turbo inter cooler inj pump and tune. Put Audi tt suspension and brakes konis and recaro seats. Have 3500 invested and paid for cash. Sold the 09 g8 gt no car pmt. Road race the golf auto crossed it even drag raced it . was at the Corvair Olympics last year. damn thing is a blast to drive. Best mileage to a tank is 750. I build these cars and sell every one I get my hands on. Also keep a garage full of customers TDIs in for repairs. the TDI engine is an amazing piece of machinery. put 40k miles on my golf last year and all I did was change oil. the problem with VW is horrible dealer service and a worthless warranty. It also serves as my tow vehicle for other vws and corvairs. I do not drive the big red dodge dually that much any more except to pull the race car. And I have cut way back on that due to crazy fuel prices.

Allen

61 rampy
63 8dr panel van (coroner van)
64 camper brier
65 deluxe brier
66 wayne 100 corvair boat
66 corsa turbo vert
former owner 66 yenko ys-019 sold
69 convert 5997 the last convertible built
69 VW westfalia transvair
78 westfalia TDI powered
monza jr
monza ss
66 pontiac 421 ho grand prix
63 pontiac 421 grand prix nostalgia drag car 10.60 1/4 mile
2002 golf tdi 6speed 350 ft lbs torque 200hp audi tt suspension 52 mpg
2007 dodge ram 3500
04 jeep rubicon rock crawler
1982 diesel Vw P/U
1966 VW Westfaila Split Window bus

Attachments:
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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 65_Turbo ()
Date: March 28, 2012 12:59PM

In my opinion...

We are using less gas as the cars and trucks get better milage, smaller volume can cause price increases to maintain the same profit.

Speculators cause increases in oil prices. They are not required to use their own money.

Fear causes price jumps. Look at the saber rattling between the US, Israel, and Iran.

Market demands also increase the price. Look at the ever growing demands in China and India.

Greed definately raises the price of gas. It takes over a month to ship the higher priced oil to our refineries, yet to price goes up immediately.

As stated in earlier posts, regional additives increase the price of gas in those areas.

Taxes on fuel increase the price of gas. Illinois adds a public transportation tax on fuel to pay for the trains and buses in Chicago.

The last I read, the US refineries are operating at full capacity. We have added only a couple of refineries in the last 20 years. We have the oil reserves here, but until they build more refineries we will still suffer from price increases.

How to fix the problem? Here are a few ideas based on my opinion.

Allow more refineries to be built.
Drill more.
Require the speculators to use their own money.
Make the windmill farms be the main source of power (they are mostly idle), and the generating stations be the backup for peak demand.

Bruce
65 Corsa Vert first car
65 Corsa Turbo Vert current car
65 Monza Sedan "Airvair"
Bolingbrook, Il
Corvair Society of America
Chicago Corvair Enthusiasts
Frankfort Car Club



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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 66cv8 ()
Date: March 28, 2012 02:34PM

They recently shut down 2 major refineries in the Philadelphia area. Their reasoning was: it was not cost effective to run them when out of the country refineries could be more profitable. Global profit sharing.

Joe

66 500 Crown 350/4 on road
66 Corsa Convertible 140/4 rough
69 Monza Convertible 140/4 in progress (original 95/3)
Nu Joisey

" A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING"

"STUPID is the NEW SMART"

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: bill darcy ()
Date: March 28, 2012 03:29PM

I find it extremely distressing that a country that once was the envy of the world for our can do spirit has been taken over by the why we can't crowd.Sorry but I'm not ready to roll over and play dead.Plenty of sheeple out there willing to believe whatever the media feeds them so they'll get what they deserve.

In the Hub City, Belen NM

Lead from behind..... get left in the dust
"I have not failed I've just found ten thousand ways that won't work" Thomas Edison

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: 66cv8 ()
Date: March 28, 2012 03:55PM

Any oil shareholders out there ready to grow a set of balls and say: I don't want any more profit!!

This my friends is where it starts with our own personal greed.

Joe

66 500 Crown 350/4 on road
66 Corsa Convertible 140/4 rough
69 Monza Convertible 140/4 in progress (original 95/3)
Nu Joisey

" A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING"

"STUPID is the NEW SMART"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2012 03:56PM by 66cv8.

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Re: OT : Gasoline prices / Imported Crude Oil, on the rise
Posted by: aircooled ()
Date: March 28, 2012 04:02PM

A important point about refining capacity:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/05/us-on-pace-to-become-net-fuel-exporter/

http://www.npr.org/2012/03/05/147992053/u-s-a-gas-exporter-for-first-time-in-more-than-50-years

The US now has an oversupply of gasoline (not oil) and is exporting it. I find this pretty interesting since one of the most common reasons for gas spikes in years past has been some impact on refining capacity (shut downs for maintenance, damage etc.). Maybe these excuses were not true?

Also want to reinforce the point about the "drill more" solution. It would likely have very little impact on prices since it is a global market and there is no reason for an oil producer to sell it cheaper to the US just because it is produced here. Not drilling might actually be a good future insurance policy. The oil can act as a sort of (untapped) emergency strategic reserve.

BTW - Good job discussing this without politicizing it (with one minor exception). See, this board can discuss such things without it degenerating into pointless bickering. thumbs up

Tim
Southern California - Where the stars are on the ground and dirt is in the sky

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