Corvair DiagramCorvair Photo
Corvair Center
home forum corvairs calendar links Corvair Podcast
California Corvairs
Clarks Corvair



Chevy Corvair License Plate
Chevy Corvair Chrome Wheel
Corvair Center Forum :  Corvair Center Phorum The fastest message board... ever.
Corvair Center 
Current Page: 2 of 3
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: 62corvairjunky ()
Date: February 21, 2012 02:00AM

If your viton o-rings have failed, something is wrong.
I am surrounded by drip free corvair engines. Some of them over 20 years old now.

I'm wondering If you shouldn't just leave it together and drive it while you acquire a set of 95 hp, non smog heads and piston/cylinder kit.

Back the timing off while you are waiting! Are you setting the timing with a light?

Try this; With the engine at an idle, twist the dist. counter clock wise until you reach peak rpm. Now twist it counter clock wise until it runs at the lowest rpm possible with out stumbling or missing. Leave the timing light in the tool box for this.grinning smiley
Now drive away and notice that you cant get it to ping no matter what.thumbs up (You probably will need to reset your idle adjustments)
Now you can twist it counter clock wise on degree per day until you get one or two pings under the WORST conditions. back it off a degree or two and drive it till you get the needed rebuild parts.

JMOdrinking smiley

Junky
Hurricane Utah.
Home of the "Red Desert Corvair Sanctuary."

 photo 7121255b-53ac-4335-a3ba-83724bf6f396_zps111b404a.jpg

62 Rusty Rampy
62 wagon under construction.(Taking all my time and $$)
61 lakewood parts car.
63 coupe
half a dozen parts cars n trucks
20x40 garage full of greasy parts

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: brocklanders ()
Date: February 21, 2012 04:15AM

A few of my vitons are seeping, I can't see how I messed them up...but yeah. that's whats up. Right now the engine is tore down to the point of the heads are about to come off. I'm at that "do or die" stage where I'll have to wait a few more months before the Canadian winter is truly over, then put it all the way back together, then run god knows how many possible snake oil ideas through it to see if they help. Meanwhile the oil in at least one of the cylinders is pointing me to a very obvious problem with oil getting into my combustion chamber. I think once I find the source of that oil, I'll find the source of the pinging...am I right so far?

I loath to make worth and spend cash, but I'm so deep into it, why not do it right and be done with it?


1968 500 coupe 110 pg
1967 Fitch Sprint 4 door
Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 21, 2012 04:31AM

Quite possibly... if only that one cylinder... could be a broken ring...





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: 62corvairjunky ()
Date: February 21, 2012 04:36AM

How much oil are we talking?
My cousins 62 monza 102 burns a quart every tank. And has for the year and a half since he purchased it. It is his daily "go to work" car.
Smoke is visible when cold but is invisible when fully warmed up....Mostly.grinning smiley

Junky
Hurricane Utah.
Home of the "Red Desert Corvair Sanctuary."

 photo 7121255b-53ac-4335-a3ba-83724bf6f396_zps111b404a.jpg

62 Rusty Rampy
62 wagon under construction.(Taking all my time and $$)
61 lakewood parts car.
63 coupe
half a dozen parts cars n trucks
20x40 garage full of greasy parts

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: brocklanders ()
Date: February 21, 2012 04:54AM

the last few runs last year were basically at the end of a 2 hr drive, the oil went from full to add. bearing in mind my main seal has a pronounced leak. seems excessive though.


1968 500 coupe 110 pg
1967 Fitch Sprint 4 door
Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: brocklanders ()
Date: February 21, 2012 05:57PM

Ok. Well this has been a craptacular lunch hour!

Pulled all the plugs, and will post the picture of the condition of the plugs later tonight, however they are all consistently light brown on the porcelin, which is darker then it should be.

I improvised a pretty good little leak tester with a guage. With a constant 25 psi, every cyl on the right bank leaked out the pcv valve at what I guessed was TDC. I was going to remove the vavle cover to be sure I was right, but I don't think in ANY position air should be leaking past the pistons right? I increased it to 50 psi and the piston had no inclination to move to BDC...not a good sign.
Every single cylinder (6) has a small pool of oil in it, and I can see quite a bit of carbon. I didn't test the left bank as just one leaking past the rings was enough to know.

Have I missed anything? Was that done correctly? Is a re-ring in my future?! lol

Cheap out question: Can I get by with just a cleaning of the heads? is it really that imperative to get them done, or simply a penny wise, pound foolish idea?


1968 500 coupe 110 pg
1967 Fitch Sprint 4 door
Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 21, 2012 06:07PM

Most likely rings...

And if you want to take a chance.... just change the rings....clean the heads..add a second head gaskets and drive it.





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 06:08PM by MattNall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: Zodi Davis ()
Date: February 22, 2012 05:31PM

Really enjoy all of kyle's posted topics!! And am following this one quite closely.

Anything can be patched for a temporary fix but reading this post has the alarms going off, As a machinist I've seen it all over the years but one golden rule has always prevailed: Unless the engine is relatively low miles sealing up one side and skipping the other is asking for trouble.
Don't just do the rings, Get the heads done as well, If not severe blowby is usually the result on the undone side in a short period of time.
A light overhaul as this is generally referred to can often extend the life of a powerglide equipped engine considerably.

I have a ridge reamer and ball hone I'll be glad to loan, I'll pay shipping to you just return when done. If I was closer would even help do those heads up right in the shop, AZ is just a smidge farther than across the street from you tho.
In any event keep up the great post's and pictures, Your attitude and straight forward approach is most refreshing.

Regards, Greg/Zodi davis

Greg/Zodi Davis
Sierra Vista, AZ.
65" Monza convertible
65"Corsa turbo coupe
66" Corsa coupe 140
66" Monza 140
65"Corsa convertible
62" Rampside
64" corvan
64"Greenbriar deluxe

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: Richard ()
Date: February 22, 2012 07:49PM

>>leaked out the pcv valve<< What?
Your pcv valve consists of an orifice. Righ?

Never mind.

Take the oil fill cap off and open the throttle. Air will either come out the oil fill hole, the carb or the exhaust.

>>Every single cylinder (6) has a small pool of oil in it,<<
When was the last time the engine ran more than warm-up before you found the oil?

Do you have a leak tester or are you just pushing air into it?

This is a home made leak tester.

The aluminum bar has a .040" hole. The first gauge is adjusted to 100 psi and I'm losing 12 psi or 12% through the engine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 07:51PM by Richard.

Attachments:

Options: ReplyQuote
Re:Leakdown testor
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 22, 2012 08:08PM

[www.harborfreight.com]





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: brocklanders ()
Date: February 22, 2012 08:11PM

OK: I guess pictures would have helped, but the carbs have been removed, the pcv is just the 'tube' out of the top of the case and there's just logs on the exhaust. My leakdown tester is not a proper one, I cannot properly test the amount of leakdown occurring, simply where the air is going with a gauge telling me the amount of air I'm pushing through.
The car has sat since late October, has not ran since parked in the shop then. Would that account for the oil?

Wouldn't ANY air escaping through the pcv tell me something is wrong? I simply moved the pistons up to the top of the cylinder, threaded in my hollowed out spark plug and introduced air, I realize this may not be TDC, but the only air escaping was past the PCV. I even plugged it and re-tried it, nothing anywhere but popping the ghetto plug out of the pcv.

I can't imagine any scenario that air would do this if the rings were ok..but that's up to the experts here!

I think the heads will get done...just kinda hurts doing at best a $500 refresh when I didn't plan on it!


1968 500 coupe 110 pg
1967 Fitch Sprint 4 door
Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: lgoodwin ()
Date: February 22, 2012 08:25PM

Brock/Kyle! You are looking at this all wrong! Tell yourself, "Damn, my 68 500 sure looks good sitting in my driveway!!!". Then decide what your goal is here. If it's to keep your vair on the road, look for a good used engine to swap in for now. Then you can take your time to properly rebuild the original engine. You obviously prefer to do the job right, but are conflicted due to the COST of a rebuild not being in the cards right now. I'll bet you can find a vair buddy that will sell you a running engine for a very good price. That's one great thing about Corvair engines--they tend to keep on ticking like a Timex, where most other engines would be long since dead.

On the pushrod tubes leaking: If any of the tubes are out of round and/or all or part of the old seal did not get removed, that would cause them to leak no matter what material the new seals are made of.

1962 Corvair 900 sedan1967 Corvair Monza 140/4-speed1968 Corvair 500 coupe1983 Mexican Mustang 5.0
1962 900 sedan needs a home1967 Monza 140/4-spd1968 500 coupe (now my son's)1983 Mexican Mustang 5.0

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: Gregory_Miller ()
Date: February 22, 2012 09:00PM

Put the engine from the 4-door in it? Dunno what shape it's in though.

Greg Miller
Eugene, Oregon

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: February 22, 2012 09:20PM

brocklanders Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Wouldn't ANY air escaping through the pcv tell me
> something is wrong?

In that type of test some air will always get past the piston rings and without a leakdown tester you can't really measure an amount or percentage to clue us in as to how good or bad it might be.

Rings will always expand and seal better against the piston grooves and cylinder walls when under the actual heat and pressure of combustion than when cold at 20-50 PSI from an air hose. Don't be too worried about some air coming out the PCV tube during a pressure test unless one cylinder is way different than the rest.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: brocklanders ()
Date: February 23, 2012 03:59AM

So....lol. basically I NEED a proper leak down tester to determine if its my rings or heads? I tested all of the right bank and #2 on the left before I decided it was pointless to do the rest.

I honestly love this place, and sometimes loath it. winking smiley soo much info, I really don't know what to do next. Saturday is my planned head removal day, so I'd like to figure out a way to determine where my issues are conclusively before anything is removed. I don't care what has to get done, but I want to make sure it's the right thing.

As per new engines: The fitch swap had crossed my mind, but All I know of it that it runs..it ran for all of 10 mins late last year and that was it. I think the best course of action here is to repair the engine in the car...but I still have no idea what to do.


1968 500 coupe 110 pg
1967 Fitch Sprint 4 door
Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 23, 2012 04:23AM

Brock.. I would 1st pull the heads.. no more.... and let us see what you find.
1 any lines in the cylinder walls [ broken ring]

And what heads you really have.. I don't remember you ever getting the numbers off them.. you may have early heads that have been cut out to fit the late barrels.





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 04:24AM by MattNall.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: martyscarr ()
Date: February 23, 2012 08:53PM

Brock wrote: "I increased it to 50 psi and the piston had no inclination to move to BDC...not a good sign."

Actually, that's a good sign smiling smiley

If you have the piston exactly at TDC you can pump over 100 psi into the chamber and it will stay at TDC.

You NEED to have the piston stay at TDC while doing the leakdown test, you don't want it dropping down in the cylinder.

On your compression readings, were all those numbers "dry" (no oil added)?

Marty Scarr

PS Lots of bad reviews on the Harbor Freight leakdown tester

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: 62corvairjunky ()
Date: February 23, 2012 09:55PM

Be very careful!
I did this once and foolishly grabbed the belt.. The air spun the engine enough to crush my hand in the fan pulley.eye popping smiley

Junky
Hurricane Utah.
Home of the "Red Desert Corvair Sanctuary."

 photo 7121255b-53ac-4335-a3ba-83724bf6f396_zps111b404a.jpg

62 Rusty Rampy
62 wagon under construction.(Taking all my time and $$)
61 lakewood parts car.
63 coupe
half a dozen parts cars n trucks
20x40 garage full of greasy parts

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: malibusled ()
Date: February 23, 2012 10:27PM

Ok, forgeting about the TDC, BDC, PSI, pistons moving, not moving, correct leak test, not correct leak test all that stuff.

Ultimately the goal is to get it to stop pinging.

It has been decided between this thread and the other two threads discussing this topic, that the reason the engine is pinging is because there is oil and carbon in the combustion chambers, causing the compression to increase which in turn with modern premium fuel will make it ping like a bastard.

It has been decided that Kyle and I will pull the heads off the engine to do some investigative research and we will send the heads out to get machined, valve job etc. and make them like new.

My concern is, where is the oil coming from???

I know people have mentioned about the car not being run for a while, and how it has been sitting. When I spoke with Kyle this aft, he said that he has looked through the spark plug holes many times before and has never noticed any oil.

However, he also said "the last few runs last year were basically at the end of a 2 hr drive, the oil went from full to add."

This is alot of oil missing, and I don't think the small leak from his main seal would cause it to be down that much oil on a 2 hr drive.

IMO, it's a no-brainer that unfortunately the car needs a ring job. Massive carbon build up, oil on top of the pistons and huge volumes of oil missing off the dipstick after short drives, etc. To me this all adds up to rings.

However, I will be right there with Kyle turning wrenches and pulling stuff apart, and I will be right there while he is parting with his hard earned scratch to pay for parts and machine shop bills.

I would very much like to see him have to spend as little money, and have as little work as possible to have a great working car.

So, my question is this, is it possible all these oil problems could be from the heads? Is it possible that the head job will fix this? Am I missing something here??

Ed Bartlett
1961 Corvair 95 Rampside 110 4 Speed
1964 Corvair Monza Coupe 110/PG
1964 Corvair Monza Convertible 95 PG
1965 Corvair Monza Coupe 140/4 Speed Conversion - Oshawa Built
1966 Corvair Corsa Convertible 180 Turbo - Oshawa Built
Bobcaygeon, ON Canada

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Re-ring an engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 23, 2012 10:47PM

Ed, I posted what to LOOK for when you 1st pull the heads...

And WHY have the heads reworked? You have no idea if they are bad... valves are good.. .high compression readings..

I suspect he has the wrong heads as I posted... or heads that have been cut!

WAIT until you get only the heads off... and then we'll figure it out.

And YES... a front main leaking will lose lots of oil!





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 2 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.