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Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 29, 2011 08:38PM

Davemotohead and I had some fun Saturday night working on the engine for Rusty...

We discovered valuecraft brand carb cleaner doesn't fully evaporate in cold weather. Had to re-clean 'n dry everything even after a couple hours elapsed!

The bottom end is all together now. Thanks to my own Dinty-Moore beef Stew-pidity, I left my gasket set at home, so no bell housing, pump housing, or top/pans, yet. GRRRRRR! The assembly is now wrapped in a linen sheet to partect it from dust 'til I get back up there again.

Either way, got some progress made, but I'd like to veri-fry a couple things:

Is it normal when de-flashing the case halves to have this much alumininum come off? First pic is a majority of it, minus a few hairy pieces bigger than a nickel!

Case halves went together very well - after plastiguaging all the rods individually, the crank came out great (toward the low end of the spectrum), but the cam had one journal that was a little bit looser than the others (no specs are given for the cam journals other than what to measure it to w/ a dial gauge, though).

As for oil pump housings, is there any advantage to using either of these two int eh third pic? Obviously, the one that was on the block was cleaned up, but the other style is available, too...


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 29, 2011 08:41PM

Next up - timing marks. We tried and tried, but it doesn't line up 'perfect' as I'd think it should.

We walked teeth up and down the 'zone', but this was the best we could do... Am I on crack, delirious from getting to this part at 5AM, or just nit-picking?


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:05PM

1 Looks like you have the offset crank gear... been a long time since I assembled an engine...

2 One is an early piece... the other a late...??? never heard of a difference in oil control. one's heavier..

3rd... assembly lube on the journals? How do you measure final torque to rotate the crank?

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:12PM

In my understanding, great gobs of ZDDP assembly lube on the crankshaft is a no-no. Is that what I see in the picture? Who was that that cooked their just-rebuilt engine because of it? Somebody in Michigan? (CCF member obviously).

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 09:16PM by cnicol.

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:21PM

Craig,
i thought that he used ZDDP as an assembly lube.
Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: Bob Helt ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:27PM

but the cam had one journal that was a little bit looser than the others (no specs are given for the cam journals other than what to measure it to w/ a dial gauge, though).


Not true. Look at the cam details shown in the Corvair Specifications documents recently posted on the GM web site.
Regards,
Bob Helt

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: gwydionjhr ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:38PM

Crap. I didn't realize there was a difference (besides timing scales) on the rear housings. Clarks lists '60, '61-9 n/a, 62-69 Turbo.

What timing scales do those two rear housing have?

I just dealt with a 140/PG crank myself, but I can't make out where the teeth are in your pic because of the glare. There is a good illustration in the Tech Guide...

Regards,
Joel Rushworth
1961 Rampside w/Deluxe Scamper Camper
1966 Corsized Cdn Monza Coupe
1967 UV #292
"Kick the Hell out of the Status Quo" - Ed Cole

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: WalterElias ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:44PM

MrChips Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Next up - timing marks. We tried and tried, but
> it doesn't line up 'perfect' as I'd think it
> should.
>
> We walked teeth up and down the 'zone', but this
> was the best we could do... Am I on crack,
> delirious from getting to this part at 5AM, or
> just nit-picking?


The mark on the cam gears are rarely perfectly stamped. What you want to line up are the keyways in the cam and crank which look dead on in the picture. To get a better look at the crankgear, I inverted the picture in Photoshop and it looks like a standard crankgear.

You can tell a 4 degree retard crank (140 PG) by the crank gear tooth that is 90 degree counter clockwise from the keyway being perfectly centered in the flywheel mounting hole. Yours isn't. I'm including a picture of a 4 degree retard crank.

But what you have looks lined up perfectly. I would agree that the assembly lube looks a bit heavily applied, especially on the bearings.

Dan Kling
1961 Greenbrier Deluxe, 110 HP, 4spd, 3.89 stump puller
1963 Spyder Coupe, restored, converted to 4spd Saginaw
1967 UltraVan #299, The migration has begun, we're on the road again......Save the Whales!

Photos of our Greenbrier, UltraVan and work-in-progress @

[www.flickr.com]

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 29, 2011 09:58PM

Yeah.. I know I went a little overboard on the lube, but there will be some rotation occurring before I can pressurize the oil system properly.

It's ISKY rev-lube engine assembly lube, not the ZDDP paste oil additive (grin). The Lucas assembly lube I bought at AutoZone just didn't seem like it would cling / hang around for the time period I'll need 'til I have this done, and this RevLube is quite similar to my moly assembly lube tube I left at home w/ the gasket set and brain.

The crank bearings are fully coated , and I had extra on my gloved finger (and a little on the case halves), so I put it on the exposed half of the crank before mating the halves for the last time.

Matt: Forgot to check rotating torque 'dry' (durnitt!). It is smooth all the way around with several revolutions.

One more shot of the timing arrangement - the tooth is clearly viewable in the crank-hole - I wish I'dve thermo-waxed the stamped '0' on the cam gear...


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2011 10:05PM by MrChips.

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 29, 2011 10:12PM

MrChips Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Matt: Forgot to check rotating torque 'dry'
> (durnitt!). It is smooth all the way around with
> several revolutions.
===============================================

Dry?? never!! But with just a thin coating of oil...

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: gwydionjhr ()
Date: May 29, 2011 10:17PM

I'd like to point out, before we jump to any conclusions, that MrChips crank does not have the wavy PG TC imprint you'd expect to see on a 140/PG crank w/ the offset gear. No ampersand "&" either.

Regards,
Joel Rushworth
1961 Rampside w/Deluxe Scamper Camper
1966 Corsized Cdn Monza Coupe
1967 UV #292
"Kick the Hell out of the Status Quo" - Ed Cole

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 29, 2011 10:22PM

I already checked all my cranks via the method in the Junkyard Primer before we sent that one off to the machine shop to be checked. None were 140/PG (bummer), but this one came back usable with standard bearings, so as long as my harmonic damper and flywheel do their jobs, it should be with me for life!

Time to get some sleep - working on less than 2 hours, and I can sleep in tomorrow - YAY! I thank the soldiers for fighting for my ability to get extra shut-eye.


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: solo2r ()
Date: May 30, 2011 05:25AM

Your cam gear is missing the shrink ring

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: May 30, 2011 09:18AM

Everyone did a great job commenting here.

Priming the engine with oil (even if you rotate it) WILL NOT clear the Isky cam lube off the journals - take it apart and clean the goop off, and out of, the oil holes - only way to do it correctly (sorry, but sometimes you have to take things apart again).

The Isky cam lube, or ZDP lube is meant ONLY for the cam lobes that drive the lifters, not for journals.

Matt is correct - only lube journals with a 10W30 oil (not 20W, not pre-luber, not grease), otherwise your torque settings will be off and you stand a good chance of ruining the new bearings.

It's darn hard to "eyeball" a cam - INDEX it. That way you know if the timing is off. Read previous posts - mistimed cams are not that unusual. Always better to find the problem BEFORE you finish assembling the engine.

Other than that - fine job.

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 30, 2011 12:32PM

solo2r Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your cam gear is missing the shrink ring

It's not a failsafe gear - just a decent aluminium product - even made in USA (shocking, but shouldn't be). Where would a shrink ring go if it was supposed to have one? I'd think a groove would be present to accept it.


As far as the engine assembly lube goes (Note it's not 'Cam lube'), it's listed specifically for bearings, journals, etc.. re-splitting the block at this point is not a problem - mating the halves was the 'easy' part, but I'd like to see where it's unusable as an assembly lube when it is listed as such, and is mentioned to be OK for such purpose. I'd just got used to the logic behind the case bolt sequence, too.


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: May 30, 2011 12:36PM

Perhaps Mark is referring to the camshaft thrust ring (behind the gear)... It does look like the cam gear isn't flush with the crank gear and a missing thrust ring would explain that.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: May 30, 2011 12:49PM

The shrink ring solo is talking about is the outer ring on a OTTO fail safe cam gear,,look at walters picture,,this is not a fail safe gear,,the cam thrust washer is in place and the gears mesh perfectly,,if you notice the un-opened bottle of lucas assembly lube in some of the pictures it would make me feel better!!grinning smiley

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 30, 2011 03:55PM

gwydionjhr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crap. I didn't realize there was a difference
> (besides timing scales) on the rear housings.
> Clarks lists '60, '61-9 n/a, 62-69 Turbo.

3 different housings have slightly different scales.

2 of them go to 16, the third has 24 stamped an marked in it, too (Could this be a turbo unit for pressure-retard use?).

Doesn't matter to me, because I use a timing light w/ advance adjustment knob, so all I need is zero.


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: May 30, 2011 04:29PM


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Re: Field trip has spawned questions...
Posted by: MrChips ()
Date: May 30, 2011 05:30PM

richard1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, way too much lube. That stuff will fill
> lube channels and ports, as well as changing the
> torque.


Got a photo showing the appropriate amount?

I started with just the lightest coating on the bearings, but it seemed so thin.

Besides crank torque, what torque are you saying it will affect? It seemed to squeeze out of the journals just from having the weight of the crank / cam in them, so I'd think the pressures from the case halves being torqued would ditch any remaining lubricant. It's not as thick as grease, but not as runny / thin as the Lucas assembly lube. It's just a little thinner than the assembly lube I have here at the house (I put that in syringes and use it to lubricate door hinges!).


Where Santiago and Live Oak Canyon intersect in Orange County, Ca

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