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Need help with starter
Posted by: gordon2205 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:01AM

Im new to the forum but have been using it as a resource for the last year. My wife has a 67 110 4 speed. The past month or so she has been having trouble with the car not starting. never the click, click, click, but just a fast whurring. Well, I have pulled the starter several times. Replaced the solenoid, the drive gear, battery and battery cable and cleaned all the terminals. I've had the starter catch once since all this, mostly it just makes a sound like the starter is spinning but not engaging. I also just connected the solenoid but not the battery cable and it makes a definite click like the solenoid is engaging. Im at my wits end trying to fix it. Looking for any suggestions on what I could have missed. Thanks in advance,
Craig

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: BritCars ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:10AM

The "whirring" sounds like the starter is not engaging. I don't think to problem is with the solenoid, but with the starter itself. I did have a similar problem with my Monza's starter, and while some suggested I disassemble the solenoid and swap out the contacts, before I could do that my starter failed spectacularly, Replacing the starter with a Clark's rebuilt starter ended that nonsense for me. I, too, replaced the battery cables while I had the starter off the car.

I have a similar deterioration on a high torque starter installed on my Land Rover. The starter "whirs" instead of engaging. If I engage the starter by "bumping" it instead, it will catch and engage correctly.

There are more experienced Corvair owners on this forum than me, but that's my 2 cents.

Good luck!

Jeff

Jeff Aronson
Vinalhaven, Maine 04863
'66 Corvair Monza Coupe 110 hp 4-speed
'66 Land Rover Series II-A 88" SW
'66 Land Rover Series II-A 88" HT
'80 Triumph TR-7 Spider
'80 Triumph Spitfire
[www.landroverwriter.com]
[www.dirgocorvairs.com]
[roversmagazine.com]

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:13AM

When you had it out did you conect it and make sure the solenoid is engaging and pushing the gear out? did you look at the flywheel gear to see if you have missing teeth?

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: gordon2205 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:20AM

I wasn't sure what the best way to bench test the starter, so I've mostly been crawling around under the corvair in the snow. I did look at the ring gear and it did not appear that there were any teeth missing. It did although seem to have wear on the far side of the gear that would suggest that the gear has possibly been flipped. Craig

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: Johnniespeed ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:24AM

Gordon2205
Not sure if this is your problem, but did you look at all the teeth on the "flywheel" (pressure plate) ? What I do is dab some paint on the teeth and have someone else slowly rotate the engine a full revolution, till you see paint again. If every tooth is perfect and none are chipped, then at least you can rule that out.
An old time mechanic told me to do that everytime I came accross a starter problem, and sure enough, I have found many broken teeth over the years.
Your description says the starter motor is spinning, so I have to assume that either the solenoid lever does not slide the drive toward the "flywheel" teeth, or the drive "bendix" (sprague) is slipping, or the "flywheel" teeth are damged.
Does this happen when the engine/starter is hot too ?
Please post your updates and findings.

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:25AM

You cant flip the gear,,sounds like the solenoid is not engaging the starter gear,,take the starter out and have it tested or test it in your garage,,you can hook the ground to the case where the bolt holes are and + to the S on the solenoid and the gear should pop outthumbs up

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:27AM

With the starter out (battery disconnected) aim a camera at the flywheel and have someone turn over the engine (3/4" wrench on the pulley). Video a complete cycle and watch it closely


Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: Johnniespeed ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:31AM

Great video Richard, a picture is worth a thousand words. Also there were a few spots where the teeth were chewed up a little, in addition to being severely out of round.

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: gordon2205 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 12:36AM

I'll pull the starter the next dry day and check that the solenoid is moving the bendix. And I'll check the flywheel for missing teeth while I have it apart again. I already have plans to replace the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate but was hoping to do it in the spring when things aren't as cold and snowy. Thanks, Craig

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: Ed Dowds ()
Date: February 02, 2011 02:43AM

The ring gear is welded on the outer edge of the pressure plate so by replacing the plate you will get another ring gear.
You will be much better off if you get the clutch from a Corvair vendor rather than a regular parts store.

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: kenzen ()
Date: February 02, 2011 03:23AM

could be the bendix - cheap thing to replace.
Ken
66 Monza 110/PG

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 02, 2011 03:29AM

kenzen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> could be the bendix - cheap thing to replace.
> Ken
> 66 Monza 110/PG

===============================================


Vairs don't have a Bendix...SPRING....

we have rachet drives...on an electric MOTOR... to start our ENGINES!!! GGGG





MODERATOR
Somewhere between Sea Mountain and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
.............................PG...................................Turbo

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Re: Need help with starter
Date: February 02, 2011 04:35AM

I agreed with Matt. Sure is the bendix. I am new in corvairs but old in electric outo parts.

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: February 02, 2011 04:38AM

Actually I agree with Matt, it is NOT a Bendix but a starter drive.

Gordon you say you replaced the drive but did you use a new/rebuilt one or just a used one from another starter?

Sincere regards, Steve

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo 1967 monza 110/4
1968 monza 110/4 1971 amante gt 110/4

Golden, Colo. CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: Tom Z ()
Date: February 02, 2011 03:52PM

..a few Corvair starters I have,have an 'assist spring' between the armature and drive to help it engage..check the 'lever' on the solenoid plunger,the left one is 'wrong',and will stop the drive from moving far enough toward the ring-gear..check the round ends on the lever for wear,and if they are located in the drive correctly..the plunger may be stuck in the solenoid,too,with gum/hard grease..

Tom Z,,Rochester NY


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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 04:52PM

steve c goodman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually I agree with Matt, it is NOT a Bendix but
> a starter drive.
>
> Gordon you say you replaced the drive but did you
> use a new/rebuilt one or just a used one from
> another starter?


What is the difference? Here we use the tern gerically.

Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: gordon2205 ()
Date: February 02, 2011 04:54PM

Yes, I replaced the starter drive with one from clarks. I also replaced the lever from the solenoid to the starter drive. also from clarks. The replacement solenoid came from my local parts store. The next chance I get Im going to test the solenoid to make sure it is moving the starter drive. Craig

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: JayHart ()
Date: February 03, 2011 12:38AM

richard1 Wrote:
> What is the difference? Here we use the tern
> gerically.

A Bendix refers to the drive on the end of the starter motor, which is an innertia type, where the initial rotation of the starter motor flings the drive pinion out on a "ramp". when the engine kicks over fast enough, the flywheel turns quicker than the pinion and starter motor. The flywheel ring gear actually disengages the pinion drive by forcing it back down the "ramp".

A Sprague clutch is an Overrunning Clutch Drive. The drive pinion on these types of starters is actually forced to engage the flywheel by a shift mechanism. the shift mechanism is integral to the starter solenoid. so when the solenoid pulls in, the shift mechanism is physically moved toward the flywheel ring gear. (In the event the ring gear and pinion drive do not mesh exactly, the spring just before the pinion drive will compress). As soon as the starter solenoid finishes travel and completes the contact so electricity can pass from the battery to the starter motor, the starter motor turns, and as soon as the teeth of the pinion begin to mesh into the flywheel, the compressed spring will force the pinion into full contact with the flywheel ring gear.

When the engine fires up, the pinion will not be forced back in an overrunning clutch type. the sprague clutch will release and allow the pinion to turn faster than the starter is turning it. The pinion will stay engaged (overrunning) fully engaged in the starter flywheel until you take the ignition key from start to run.

Jay

Hope Valley,
Rhode Island


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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: kenzen ()
Date: February 03, 2011 02:35AM

richard1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> steve c goodman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually I agree with Matt, it is NOT a Bendix
> but
> > a starter drive.
> >
> > Gordon you say you replaced the drive but did
> you
> > use a new/rebuilt one or just a used one from
> > another starter?
>
>
> What is the difference? Here we use the tern
> gerically.

"Starter drive" sounds like a good way to describe it. Bendix is technically a name of a company, they were also popular for "coaster brakes" on bicycles. (I believe they make electrical connectors as well under Amphenol name.) It's become a generic term (e.g. Band Aid for an "adhesive bandage") for what I believe is more generally called a "run-away clutch" or "overrunning clutch" - it engages until the thing its pushing (i.e. the flywheel) begins to drive its pinion faster then the motor that initially accelerated it (i.e. the starter motor). At that point, it retracts, (driven by the same screw force that pushed it into the flywheel) from the difference in pinion gear speed and the starter motor shaft speed. When the clutch slips (i.e. a "bad Bendix"), the motor simply spins the body of the "starter drive",and the pinion gear simply locks into the flywheel but can't turn it over.

Ken
Ex Navy electrician that had to rebuild a few of these things after the boatswain mates smoked them....

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Re: Need help with starter
Posted by: gordon2205 ()
Date: April 12, 2011 10:31PM

Well I wanted to update everyone that had some input on this one. I had feared that the flywheel had gone south and was trying to make it to nicer weather to replace it but the corvair had something else in mind. The starter problem ended up with the flywheel going eccentric and breaking the starter nose off. Well after getting all the parts together my brother and I pulled the motor and replaced the flywheel and clutch along with the usual gaskets and seals. I got the clutch adjusted this morning and wow what a car. starts nice and revs smooth. Once again, Thanks, Craig

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