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performance workshop
Posted by: ScottS ()
Date: March 13, 2010 05:36PM

Wow what a great session. I am driving back from indy in the 69. No heat sucks but really enjoying the ride 70 mph and 24 mpg will post pics tonight unless my fan belt gives up the ghost lol. Awesome cars and people as always

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1969 Monza Coupe
1966 Nader Invader !
1966 Monza Coupe
www.vaircooled.com
I love Corvairs
Ohio

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 13, 2010 07:16PM

We'll anxiously await the video report!





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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: GibsonVair ()
Date: March 13, 2010 08:47PM

I dyno'd my car and may have set the low horsepower of the day! 95 RWHP. It got really lean at 5200 RPM and the power just dropped off and started missing badly. It was very interesting to see the hp and torque figures for each car.
Steve Gibson

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 13, 2010 08:52PM

Steve, tell us whatyou are running!

Tire size, Diff Ratio, trans , engine specs, and carburation

Had you not fell off at the top due to leanness.. that we'd want the timing specs..





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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
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..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: ScottS ()
Date: March 14, 2010 06:45AM

link to pictures


2010PFWORKSHOP

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1969 Monza Coupe
1966 Nader Invader !
1966 Monza Coupe
www.vaircooled.com
I love Corvairs
Ohio

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: Noah ()
Date: March 14, 2010 07:56AM

Great time again!
The 63 Spyder I borrowed (my mom's cool) was running as strong as ever on the drive down. Dyno'ed 99 hp, 142 ftlb torque @ 3400. I'll never see that speedo turned past 120 again! I thought the numbers were right and not unexpected. The dyno's MAP sensor had a bit of noise and bounced between 4 and 7.5 psi. Stock gauge got close to +15" fwiw. Stock car, bore unknown, Petronix I, coil unknown, 64 diff (3.27) & trans, tires taller than stock (size?), Mobil 1, non-synth gear oil. It went from rich to crazy rich on the runs, of course.
Andrew told me that miniman82 had been banned here ( first I'd heard!). He showed up with his beetle, 2L, megasquirt, turbo'ed and can you believe: EDIS??? he was on the dyno the longest, messing around with his laptop, pulled impressive numbers. Crept up on him in the night on the interstate driving back to Chicago. Got along side him (he had headphones on!) and after a glance he floored it. Totally got jump on me and left me behind quick, but I gather his beetle is even more hairy at high speed than a 63 vert. I pulled along side again, gave him something between a wave and a salute and mashed it. He pulled, loudly behind me and as I soared strong past 100, he had to drop off.
Had a great time, great to see everyone, tough to be torn between dyno and presentations, thanks to all who put this on again in Indy, can't wait for the convention.

Noah
Milwaukee

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 14, 2010 08:35AM

Great Shots Scott!

Noah, that magic 100 rwhp seems to be the"norm" for mostly stocker turbos.

Too bad Nick didn't have his Vair there in the Cool....when he ran in the summer it was 100F! 9x hp..

And yes, the Beetle is weird in aero....even at 80-100.... big difference between on power/ accelerating quickly, and when it drops off to an easy speed increase..





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Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: Noah ()
Date: March 14, 2010 02:42PM

I have some pics too, too slow to upload w 3g. I'll get em up in a couple days.
Jack Frost won the torque bragging rights with his turbo'ed 180, DCOE, water injected LM streeter. He was bested in HP by Michael Leveques six-runner 4bbl but just barely. I think it was 176 hp?? Michael? Anyhow, at that point he was the last Vair on the dyno and we all thought he'd pull more than that. Not sure if he was having any issues after putting the plug wires back on. ggg
Sounded angry as hell!

Noah
Milwaukee

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: Scott V ()
Date: March 14, 2010 05:05PM

Noah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> dyno's MAP sensor had a bit of noise and bounced
> between 4 and 7.5 psi. Stock gauge got close to
> +15" fwiw.

probably not sensor noise. ive also seen vairs dynoed w/fluctuations of map readings. i asked ray sedman/american-pi.com who did the dyno work about this & he said its because of pulses in the stock intake. he explained some other stuff about this but i didnt really understand all of it. he also explained ways to work w/this when doing efi cuz you want a steady map reading - not one jumping around.

spyder boost gauges read inches of Hg - not psi. 7.5 psi is about 15 in/Hg so your gauge & dyno map agree.

-Scott V.

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 14, 2010 09:02PM

I have some to post but it will have to be later....some interesting stories....

I videod a few dyno runs that I will post as well...great time...great friends....great cars....

Running on only a few hours sleep in the last 48 hours....

My 63 Sprint pulled 112 RWHP and 128FTLB torque with my "little" bonnet air cleaners....

My last run I took the air cleaners off and ran it without any air filters at all to see what the restriction was.....

I tell that bit later after I sleep....

Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 14, 2010 09:19PM

Dang Rick... now we'll not sleep!! gg





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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The Performance Workshop....MY DYNO EXPERIENCE !!!! PART 1
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 15, 2010 10:30AM

I thought I would throw a little more info about my dyno experience. First of all this was the first time I have ever ran a car on a dyno, I had previously watched dyno runs on the TV. and internet, but never personally ran a car on one. I am not sure of the brand or brake style of this dyno, all I can tell you is that was a fixed rear wheel driven roller dyno. You positioned your car so the drive wheels sat on the rollers and the car was ratchet strapped down front and rear. You started the car and slowly worked thru the gears just trying to get to your top gear. Once you hit top gear (4th for me) the dyno operator signaled you to hit it and you started accelerating. You had complete control, deciding where you wanted to stop revving your car. My first run I stopped at 5800, the 2nd 6000, and the 3rd at 5900. The engine ran great, without any ignition breakup, missing, or valve float.

It was kind of strange sitting in the driver’s seat watching the tachometer and speedometer climb, with exhaust roaring inside the dyno booth and not moving. My Sypder speedo reads to 120mph and I buried the needle somewhere after 5500rpm and the engine continue to climb strong all the way up to 6000 and I could have wound it out farther but could see the HP and TQ falling off way earlier so it wasn’t necessary…

The basic drive train is as follows…Stock 63 4 speed, stock 1963 3.55 posi diff, 195/70R14 tires….

My motor is a 1965 140 rebuilt to factory clearance spec’s with the only internal changes to stock being a .030 overbore, OT-20 cam, and HD valve springs. The heads are as the factory cast them without and porting or modifications including the stock 140 exhaust tubes. The main performance “upgrades” are the carburetion and exhaust after the tubes. The mods to the carbs are all based on flow, all internal protrusions are ground away, smoothed, the clusters thinned, and the throttle shaft has been thinned. The exhaust is a custom combination of some aftermarket parts that consists of Yenko style headers that wrap around and go into Clarks Large trombone extractors.

Sitting on top of the carbs are the correct aftermarket individual air filters that was used on the Yenko Stingers and Fitch Sprints. This style of individual air cleaner was tested in the 60’s to flow better than the factory stock 140 air snorkel. Recent data would suggest that there are modifications that can be made to the stock 140 setup to improve flow as well as other aftermarket singles and doubles that “should” flow better than the old school singles. There was a magazine test performed on the singles that found they were restrictive on the motors tested but this was on larger displacement motors that were trying to suck a lot more air and they were using current aftermarket singles with a different bell shape and design compared to what I am running.

Here are the environment variables from the dyno sheet…
Room air temperature = 57.42 F
Barometric Pressure = 28.79 In-Hg
Humidity = 45%
STD = 1.03
Avg Gear ratio = 49.09
The summarized version of the numbers are…

With air cleaners..
MAX HP
111.44 at 5100 rpm

MAX TORQUE
126.95 at 4000 rpm

Without air cleaners

MAX HP
114.81 at 5000 rpm

MAX TORQUE
130.64 at 4200 rpm

So only a gain of 3.37hp and 3.69 ft-lb with the removal of the air filters.


I tried to test a stock 140 setup but I could not mount it as my vent tubes stuck up too far to allow them to seal and I did not have a set of risers to fit the setup.

My plan was to test the stock setup, vs, my filers, verse my velocity stacks…I forgot my stacks at home in a box in the garage,,,,,

I know that Noah recorded one of my runs and I recorded his runs as well as nick’s and Micheal LeVeques…I will try and get them posted ASAP….

Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: March 15, 2010 10:38AM

So that's 111 HP at the rear wheels? If so, that's good to know. My 140 has similar mods (ISKY 270 cam, 0.030 overbore, Clarks ultimate headers, individula air cleaners).

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Oklahoma City, OK

Click for Oklahoma City, Oklahoma Forecast

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Re: The Performance Workshop....MY DYNO EXPERIENCE !!!! PART 1
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 15, 2010 10:52AM

Yep...111.64 hp at the rear wheels with a couple more HP easy to get with a few subtle changes...

These tests were run cold...it was 57 degrees in the room but it was more like upper 30's low 40's outside and my car was cold. This means my trans fluid and diff fluid were also very cold and very viscous.

I warmed the engine up only a few minutes sitting on the dyno idling but everything else was cold...I would have saw gains if I would have had the thought of drving the car around a while before putting it on the dyno to get everything warmed up.

As a wild guess, I opted for 51 jets in my primaries and 53 in my secondaries, which turns out to be way rich...with my air fuel ratio averaging around 11.5-12.5...Running smaller jets in both would get me closer to the correct level and I would see a slight gain in power there as well...

I also have my timing set to be very safe to run on pump gas and could see advancing the timing would net a positive result...especially with better gas..

Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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Re: performance workshop / ricks runs
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 15, 2010 11:05AM

That's still respectable! Kent Sullivan's Engine dyno of a 2.9L 4 carb only netted 139 at the Flywheel... but the engine was fresh and not built loose..

And you are right about heat... "I" feel, and watched engine dyno tests to back me up 30 years ago...

Until Head temps get to 400F...you don't make full power...


We'd run the engines with no belt until temps rose....pop on the belt and make pulls..


Filters... are you saying with bonnets, 11.5? without 12.5??


Wish you had velocity stacks to test .... bet it would have gained 5+ more...


ps 1/10 of an HP more and I'd be right!! LOL!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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The Performance Workshop....MY DYNO DATA
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 15, 2010 11:16AM

Room air temperature = 57.42 F
Barometric Pressure = 28.79 In-Hg
Humidity = 45%
STD = 1.03
Avg Gear ratio = 49.09

With air cleaners..
MAX HP
111.44 at 5100 rpm

MAX TORQUE
126.95 at 4000 rpm

Without air cleaners
MAX HP
114.81 at 5000 rpm

MAX TORQUE
130.64 at 4200 rpm

So only a gain of 3.37hp and 3.69 ft-lb with the removal of the air filters.

One both runs the RPM that the torque and HP curves crossed each other were right around 5,150 rpm. I am going to try and post the actual chart so you can see the graph lines later.

Talking with Corvair experts with previous dyno experience at the show, the dropoff in power output at 5000 rpm is very typical of stock heads and related to flow. The stock casting was designed by GM to be sufficient up to and beyond the “normal” driving ranges of the consumer driver. I could see gains with some quick intake and exhaust porting work to reduce the flow restrictions and allow the engine to breathe beyond 5000 rpm.

Here is the base data….

Run 2 - With Air filters

RPM --- HP ---- FT-LBS--- A/F
2700 - 065.75 - 127.89 - 12.23
2800 - 067.16 - 125.97 - 11.45
2900 - 069.66 - 126.17 - 10.91
3000 - 071.34 - 124.90 - 10.59
3100 - 073.69 - 124.85 - 10.34
3200 - 076.08 - 124.87 - 10.30
3300 - 078.30 - 124.62 - 10.30
3400 - 080.89 - 124.95 - 10.30
3500 - 083.93 - 125.94 - 10.30
3600 - 087.67 - 127.91 - 10.30
3700 - 089.73 - 127.36 - 10.59
3800 - 091.54 - 126.53 - 10.92
3900 - 094.09 - 126.72 - 11.05
4000 - 096.68 - 126.95 - 11.20
4100 - 098.57 - 126.27 - 11.34
4200 - 101.08 - 126.40 - 11.35
4300 - 103.85 - 126.84 - 11.46
4400 - 105.31 - 125.70 - 11.58
4500 - 106.98 - 124.87 - 11.95
4600 - 107.35 - 122.57 - 12.03
4700 - 107.59 - 120.23 - 12.06
4800 - 108.51 - 118.73 - 12.11
4900 - 109.83 - 117.72 - 12.09
5000 - 110.52 - 116.09 - 12.18
5100 - 111.44 - 114.77 - 12.36
5200 - 110.09 - 111.20 - 12.53
5300 - 108.72 - 107.73 - 12.39
5400 - 108.12 - 105.16 - 12.37
5500 - 106.76 - 101.93 - 12.33
5600 - 105.21 - 098.69 - 12.25
5700 - 102.79 - 094.71 - 12.27
5800 - 099.85 - 090.34 - 12.24
5900 - 099.80 - 090.33 - 12.28
6000 - - -


Run 3 - No Air filters

RPM --- HP ---- FT-LBS --- A/F
2700 - 066.81 - 129.97 - 13.20
2800 - 068.99 - 129.41 - 12.80
2900 - 071.37 - 129.26 - 12.43
3000 - 073.34 - 128.41 - 12.04
3100 - 075.41 - 127.77 - 11.85
3200 - 077.64 - 127.42 - 11.56
3300 - 080.29 - 127.79 - 11.48
3400 - 083.42 - 128.86 - 11.49
3500 - 085.74 - 128.66 - 11.44
3600 - 088.54 - 129.18 - 11.58
3700 - 091.91 - 129.44 - 11.59
3800 - 094.06 - 130.01 - 11.65
3900 - 096.93 - 130.54 - 11.72
4000 - 099.38 - 130.49 - 11.70
4100 - 101.62 - 130.18 - 11.69
4200 - 104.47 - 130.64 - 11.71
4300 - 106.45 - 130.02 - 11.82
4400 - 108.91 - 130.01 - 11.92
4500 - 110.78 - 129.31 - 11.99
4600 - 110.40 - 126.05 - 11.92
4700 - 111.04 - 124.08 - 11.85
4800 - 112.11 - 122.67 - 11.88
4900 - 112.78 - 120.88 - 11.86
5000 - 114.81 - 120.59 - 12.02
5100 - 114.42 - 117.83 - 11.99
5200 - 111.88 - 113.01 - 12.06
5300 - 112.96 - 111.94 - 12.11
5400 - 111.63 - 108.58 - 12.08
5500 - 111.49 - 106.46 - 11.93
5600 - 107.92 - 101.21 - 11.96
5700 - 105.84 - 097.52 - 11.85
5800 - 102.98 - 093.25 - 11.92
5900 - 100.55 - 089.51 - 11.83
6000 - 094.67 - 082.87 - 11.79

Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 15, 2010 11:23AM

It all makes sense!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: performance workshop
Posted by: tkalp ()
Date: March 15, 2010 11:24AM

The 2010 Performance Workshop was another great one. It was great being able to run a variety of Corvairs on the same dyno, on the same day. Makes comparisons more accurate. Not often to you get to hear a modified Corvair engine turning 6,000 to 7,000 rpm under load in an enclosed garage . . . solved a lot of my earwax problems.

Many excellent speakers, lots of people vending (Rick Norris was practically giving stuff away, got a set of slightly used HD valve springs for $5). It was encouraging to see the debut of two excellently prepared/built race only Corvairs. Michael's 160 tribute and the Frost's green racer were inspiring. However the best part of all was being able to sit around and bench race with a lot of the greats in Corvair performance and just BS with old friends. The trip was a 10 hour drive each way, but I am already looking forward to next year.

tkalp
wichita, ks

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Performance Workshop - Part 1 Video of Micheal LeVeques racecar on dyno
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 15, 2010 05:11PM

I have more Video's of the dyno coming....turn up the volume...




Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2010 05:12PM by ral1963.

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Re: Performance Workshop - Part 2 Video of Micheal LeVeques racecar on dyno
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: March 15, 2010 05:13PM

More...



Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Rides
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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