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Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: mrmel ()
Date: August 12, 2022 06:58PM

If the only difference between an early vs late is the 30deg vs 45deg angle, would an early brass synchro ring on an early gear work with a 2 hole cluster gear?

Also did the clutch gear change occur when the cluster gear went from one hole to 2 holes?

I've encountered binding in the past and concluded that the early clutch gear had to be used with a one hole cluster gear and a late clutch gear had to be used with a 2 hole cluster gear.

I have wondered about this for quite awhile.

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: August 12, 2022 08:04PM

Yes. Your observations are correct. This is shown on Craig Nicol’s excellent chart.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: August 12, 2022 09:16PM

Credit Craig Nicol

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Attachments:
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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: dryenko ()
Date: August 13, 2022 04:30AM

Is there a addtional page showing the 66-69 transmission ??

Bob C aka Dryenko
Dobson, NC 27017

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: August 13, 2022 05:12AM

I don’t know if Craig made one and I have no interest in that subject. Were there different gear ratios from 66-69? I know there are those who build single close and double close transmissions. Maybe Yenko folks know the part numbers.

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: mrmel ()
Date: August 13, 2022 03:50PM

I'd still like to know the difference between the early 64 amd late 64/5 clutch gear. What would I have to measure or see to determine which clutch gear it is?
The 30deg vs 45deg I assume refers to the bevel on the edge of the gear teeth.Is that the difference?

Thank you for all the replies.

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: August 13, 2022 04:30PM

I believe that is referring not the gear teeth but on brass synchro to gear interface.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
62' Wagon rebuild MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
67' UltraVan 211 "Violet"
NFCC, UMCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2022 04:32PM by toms73novass.

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: mrmel ()
Date: August 13, 2022 04:40PM

I used to think that too but today I studied the profile on an early 3rd gear vs a late 3rd gear and indeed they are different (I think!).
However the angles to my eye don't seem to be 30/45deg. They seem less.
I had early and late brass rings and the early ring only fit the early and the late only fit the late. So what does the 30/45deg angle refer to?

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: Vern in Bend ()
Date: August 13, 2022 05:44PM

I may be wrong, but I've always thought the 30/45 deg angle referred to the bevel on the 'nose' of the clutch gear with no purpose except to easily ID 1st vs 2nd design.

Regards, Vern

Bend, Oregon

'64 Corvan, daily driver - 48 years
'64 Rampside, personal driver - 30 years - SOLD 9/21
'67 Monza Cpe, original owner - 33k miles
'80 Vanagon stalled project - 2.8 Corvair & T5 5-speed
'81 Vanagon high-top panel van - Now with Subi EJ253 & Subarugears 5-speed
'19 Subaru Forester Sport

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 13, 2022 05:57PM

Vern in Bend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may be wrong, but I've always thought the 30/45 deg angle referred to the bevel on the 'nose' of the clutch gear with no purpose except to easily ID 1st vs 2nd design.
>
> Regards, Vern
Craig replies: That is my understanding as well. Chamfer in the nose for identification only.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: August 13, 2022 07:23PM

I read all Saginaw transmissions changed blocker rings in 64, that it wasn’t for identification. In fact, you can swap certain gears if you use the appropriate blocker ring. But gears as far as the original question, the first design 3840294 looks like the gear on these eBay ad with a 30 degree angle
[www.ebay.com]
And

[www.ebay.com]

The second design 3851508 has a 45 angle on the end of the gear that looks like a bullnose. I can’t locate a photo right now.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: August 13, 2022 08:27PM

I was looking at a 1st design (1 lube hole) countergear and a 2nd design (2 lube holes). For awhile I could not see a difference. I then noticed that the big front gear that meshes with the clutch gear had alittle bit of a bevel to the teeth. I believe this was the second design. The other gears were the same on both which makes since, since the early and later mainshaft gears were used on the same 1st design countergear. I didn't compare the clutch gears but I'm guessing that there would be beveling on the second design clutch gear. I also believe that the angle on the nose of the gear is how you tell the designs apart.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: August 14, 2022 08:53AM

Vern in Bend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may be wrong, but I've always thought the 30/45 deg angle referred to the bevel on the 'nose' of the clutch gear with no purpose except to easily ID 1st vs 2nd design.
>
> Regards, Vern

Good to learn!

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
62' Wagon rebuild MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
67' UltraVan 211 "Violet"
NFCC, UMCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: Early Guy ()
Date: August 14, 2022 09:46AM

I know this is slightly off topic but in reference to the late 4spd (66-69). They all had the same gear ratios there were some slight changes in some parts I believe the counter gear was one. As stated some folks made custom mods by using a counter gear from one of the big car saginaws. When this was done the clutch gear had to be modified by cutting the splined nose off the Corvair gear and cutting the gear off the big car clutch gear then welding the doner gear to the corvair nose.After this was done the finished gear had to be reheat treated to achieve the original hardness.I did this process for a guy maybe 40 years ago. A lot of very precise machining was required.Not something I would attempt again.


Ray Johnson Villa Park IL 63 Spyder Conv. 140 EFI

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: mrmel ()
Date: August 15, 2022 05:02PM

Thanks for all the replies. I now understand that the early 64 clutch gear had a 30deg taper on the end that sticks out of the front of the transmission (nose) and the late 64/5 clutch gear had a 45drg angle. The different angle was for id purposes. Both clutch gears used the same brass rings.

I still don't totally understand why the late clutch gear only works with a 2 hole
cluster gear and the early clutch gear only works with a one hole cluster gear.
I have noted Rex Johnson's comment on the bevel on the big end of the cluster gear. Does that have something to do with the incompatibility?

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: August 16, 2022 04:23PM

Gears are cut differently. If you mix the parts they will both go together. I can't remember which produces what result but I put the wrong counter gear in a transmission and it was bound up. Not enough clearance between a gear on it and a gear on the main shaft. It was close enough to go together but was obviously wrong. It happened because a transmission I was building need a countergear and I didn't know they were different. That's when I discovered the holes that id them. I think it was a late transmission that I tried to put an early countergear in.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 138 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Early 64 trans clutch gear vs late 64/5 clutch gear
Posted by: mrmel ()
Date: August 16, 2022 05:35PM

Joel--same thing happened to me. I had a 2 hole cluster gear with a early 64 clutch gear. It took me awhile to out of desperation remove the clutch gear because it was easier. Then I guess by coincidence I unknowingly replaced it with a late clutch gear and problem solved. I finally know why. And yes there must be a difference in how the gears geometries cause this but I still don't exacyly know why.

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