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External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 04, 2022 06:41PM

OK, I have read most of the threads I can find here. 'Believe' my setup is OK, but pretty much killed a battery (was 8 years old) - bear with me and I'll make the case.

Last month while at the convention I noticed my lights acting a little weird - pulsing as I ran through the RPM range - just seemed erratic. The following week my GEN light started glowing at low RPM, would go out as I got off idle. I decided it was time to install one of the new 10SI units I had on the shelf, and clean up the wiring a bit while I was at it. I have been running setup since 2014.

What I had:
    * 1962 Rampside
    * Original wiring harness intact - except engine bay - Clark's repro
    * Alternator with external regulator, Clarks kit (came with the truck)
    * Accel Super Coil
    * Pertronix II
    * LM red plastic POSITIVE terminal on frame rail for ignition / Alt / Battery junction
    * GEN lamp is flashing bulb from Clark's (if it matters)
    * Cheap digital tuner under dash with a memory lead hooked up (6 years now)

What I did:
    *Removed existing alternator and regulator
    *Wired just like the diagram below (found here on CC)
    *Removed the regulator connector and direct wired

I cranked the truck up, measure ~14.4VDC at the battery terminal. Turn ignition off, engine dies, GEN light does not stay on. I think "Great, I'm done"
When I did this with my VW bus I wasn't so lucky, engine would not kill. Had to install the diode behind the dash. That has worked till this day.

I take the FC for a short ride then park it for about 4 days.

Go to drive it Saturday and the battery is DEAD. Completely dead. As in the charger showed < 2VDC when I hooked it up,

I figure I had a drain and the diode was needed. Ordered a short jumper setup that plugs into the alternator, then the harness plugs into it. Diode is installed in this short harness.

I wound up replacing the battery today after several attempts to get the old one to take and hold a charge.

I disconnected the negative battery cable and used a test light to complete the circuit. I get an initial pulse on the test light and then nothing. I figure this is the memory lead on the radio perhaps?

I'm trying to understand if I really had a problem, or just a highly coincidental incident with the battery? Seems highly unlikely but I really don't want to kill another battery.

Any other tests I should run to verify I don't still have a problem?

I installed the diode harness - how can I verify it is doing what it should do?
Or if I need it at all? I want to believe I do not based on truck's behavior. (other than murdering my battery)

Just weird to me that the engine shut off and the GEN light was not staying on.

I even removed the Clark's bulb and put a normal one in (thinking the way the Clark's bulb worked was affecting this somehow). Same results. Engine kills, light stays off.

I disconnected the two wire plug on the Alternator for the night till I get some feedback here.

As usual - Many thanks for any feedback,



gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: 63vert ()
Date: August 04, 2022 07:06PM

I think if you did the wiring correctly, then this is just a coincidence. Someone else may chime in and say otherwise…..

Rockingham, NC

1962 Greenbrier
65 110 4speed

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: August 04, 2022 08:28PM

I don't understand the wiring diagram above. I use the section in the Tech Guide. I know I had trouble with a wiring pigtail for the alternator from O'Reillys having the red and white wires reversed for what we need so I've been getting them from NAPA.
I've been buying a ceramic type common post with a 1/4" lug to run the red wires to. The LM plastic junction is too brittle for me.
White wire goes to light, other 4 to post.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 04, 2022 08:53PM

Thanks for the replies!

That is how mine is - White wire on new harness pigtail goes to the brown lead eventually to the light. Red wire just looped down to the B+ terminal on the alternator itself. Pretty much the same as running it over to the junction point.

I’m thinking I drove for about 1200 miles convention week at 3600RPM + with an alternator on its way out, then it started acting up more when I got home. Then I put The new alternator on and blast it with 14+ volts. Maybe that was the death blow? That’s about all I can come up with.

I can say before I bought a new battery I opened up the old one and there was no fluid inside of it. I topped it with distilled water and tried again to charge it, but it got very hot so I stopped. Maybe not the best idea, but I really didn’t want to spend 100+ dollars on a battery. The last time I bought a 51R it was sub $60. sad smiley

Jim-I like the idea of a more robust terminal block. I will look into that. Thanks!

gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: August 05, 2022 03:30AM

Here is what I made up and used on my Greenbrier. Still working after 4 years and with new owner.

I think the schematic you used has the alternator terminals #1 & #2 wired backwards.

No diode needed on the Vairs. I learned that myself even after being told by experts here on the forum.

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: August 05, 2022 03:34AM

I found a typical 10SI alternator wiring schematic for you. It is wired up like my schematic.

Terminal 1 goes to the indicator light not the battery.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2022 03:35AM by Lane66m.

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: August 05, 2022 04:13AM

1200 miles at 3600 RPMs, your Corvair engine was a busy bee.

I've been buying Wilson alternators at O'Reillys to convert. They seem to be proud that they've all been tested and have a phone number to help track down what else may be wrong. Of course that wouldn't work after I take it apart for Corvair conversion.
I'm happy to pay a little more for consistency. I only had trouble with one. It was a bit of a hassle to switch the alternator all back in order to return for testing.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: August 05, 2022 05:11AM

Following.

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 05, 2022 06:02AM

Lane66m wrote;
"I think the schematic you used has the alternator terminals #1 & #2 wired backwards."

Craigreplies: Every schematic on this thread has #1 correctly wired to warning light and #2 correctly wired to battery.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 05, 2022 06:22AM

As for your setup, the flashing bulb does matter.

Current in the warning lamp circuit is used to initially excite (turn-on) the alternator and that current in an EM/FC conversion is already marginal for that function; an inline diode reduces current even more because of it's forward voltage drop. Low current in the exciter/warning circuit only affects initial excitation/startup of the alternator.

Factory alternatoor wiring puts a 10-ohm resistor in parallel with the bulb to increase current and ensure excitation and of course the 10-ohm resistor is not present in a conversion.

None of this will cause your battery drain though. Wiring 1 & 2 backwards will definitely kill the battery. A defective alternator diode or regulator will kill the battery. Wiring the radio's power and memory backwards will kill the battery too.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 05, 2022 06:34AM

Thanks for the replies.

Here are some pics of my setup.

I have verified that terminal 1 goes to the GEN light. Terminal 2 is battery.
Every 10SI pic I can find shows Terminal 1 on the left as facing the rear of the alternator.

Terminal 1 (low wire in this pic) is the blue lead.
Hard to see it, but terminal 2 (red lead) hairpins to the large B+ terminal on the alternator.
The short diode harness is not installed in this pic.



Here you can see the blue wire connecting to the brown lead going to the GEN light.
My positive terminal junction is also seen on side filler panel.
You can see the old regulator hiding behind that side panel, held in place by the button head Allen screws:



The overall setup.



gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2022 06:38AM by gerg.

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 05, 2022 07:18AM

After verifying I was using the DMM correctly I tested the system for any amperage (flow) from/to/through the battery.
Please comment if I have done this wrong or there is a better way.

I disconnected the negative battery cable.

The diode adapter harness in NOT installed.

Put my DMM in µA (micro Amp) setting.

Completed the circuit with the positive meter lead on the disconnected battery cable, and the negative lead on the battery terminal.

Each time I make the connection I see a real quick 60-75 µA reading ('maybe' for a second?), then nothing after that - until I reset the experiment.

I think this aligns with the brief test light glow running the same test yesterday. Still believe it is the memory lead on the tuner.

Safe to say that with no sign of DC current the system is OK and not draining the battery?

gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2022 07:21AM by gerg.

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: August 05, 2022 08:14AM

Gerg wrote: "Safe to say that with no sign of DC current the system is OK and not draining the battery?"

Craig Replies: Your test and lack of current flow would seem to indicate there's no drain happening HOWEVER...

The test method may well have fried the fuse in your DMM. You should be seeing 10 milliamps draw from your radio memory. (a milliamp [ma] is 1000 times more than a microamp [µA]. DMMs have a low-value fuse that's easily fried and once fried they're useless for drain tests because they always report zero after stabilization.

Safe ways to perform a drain test include:

A small incandescent test light inserted between the removed battery cable and post. These glow bright at 200 ma and dimly at still problematic currents. If they don't glow at all, your probably OK.

An even better way to measure parasitic current is to insert a 1-Ohm, 10 or 20-watt resistor between the battery post and disconnected cable. With the resistor in place, measure the VOLTAGE across the resistor. Through the magic of Ohm's law and use of a 1-ohm resistor, measured voltage is the same as current flow, i.e. 1-Volt measured means 1-Amp is flowing. If the measured voltage is less than 30-millivolts (meaning 30 milliamps), that's considered OK. In your case with the radio memory, I'd expect 10-millivolts (10-milliamps).


Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
65 Canadian Monza 4dr 110/PG 40k
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 05, 2022 08:43AM

Thanks Craig!

I did do the first safe test a few times with my test light.

As mentioned I get that same quick dim 'blink' and then nothing.

I will proceed to do the other tests - seemingly more accurate.

gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 07, 2022 02:22PM

Quick update. The battery has maintained a full charge for 2 days. I’ve been busy working wiring updates under our home while the floors are opened up for repairs so have not had time to do any other electrical tests as Craig outlined.

Drove the truck Saturday morning for about 45 miles or so. No issues.

Took it to the store this afternoon and I notice once started the GEN light is on about 1/2 brightness. Once RPM comes up on fast idle it goes to a very dim (almost unnoticeable brightness). I grab the DMM and measure 14.4 VDC at the battery.

Starting to think this older, ‘should be like new’ alternator has a problem?? Maybe the regulator itself?

gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]

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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: August 07, 2022 02:36PM

Its really hard on alternators if they have had to run a car and charge a battery that got down too far. Dont ask how I know this!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



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Re: External Alt replaced with 10SI - sanity check please
Posted by: gerg ()
Date: August 07, 2022 03:05PM

I bet Kevin!!

I May not have mentioned that I wound up replacing the battery last Wednesday.

And, I am not using the short adapter harness with the built-in diode that I ordered.

gerg
Monroe, LA


Current cars and other fun stuff -> [gregblakeney.smugmug.com]

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