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Re: Lifters
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: June 23, 2022 02:42AM

Nothing special about adjusting the lifters hot.

Lifters should be filled with oil.

Rocker arms adjusted a little so that they do not "fall off" the push rod.

And, not adjusted / turned down too far where a push rod can be bent.

An engine will run even if all the lifters clatter.

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 23, 2022 03:49AM

With #1 at TDC, adjust:

#1 intake, #1 exhaust, #3 intake, #5 exhaust #4 exhaust, and #6 intake

rotate crank one full revolution (#2 at TDC) and adjust:

#3 exhaust, #5 intake, #2 intake, #2 exhaust, #4 intake, and #6 exhaust

Tighten 1/2 turn after pushrod endplay is removed. This does not mean that you can not twist the pushrod. The pushrod may still be able to be twisted (rotated about its linear axis) before the extra 1/2 turn but will not move in and out.
You can use a 0.001" feeler gauge between rocker arm and valve stem and tighten until there is drag when removing the gauge. This would be zero lash. Then do the 1/2 turn and you're done.


Worst thing about this service manual procedure is it just says #1 or #2 at TDC. For every cylinder there are two TDC's.
TDC compression stroke
TDC exhaust stroke
You want TDC Compression stroke.



Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio 45840

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: June 23, 2022 11:24AM

+1 for the .001 feeler gauge method. Just make sure the push rod is seated in the lifter. I would also caution to be careful that the ratchet/socket is not pushing on the rocker ball. Lifters that are new, or drained down compress with greater ease.

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***'61 Lakewood, a "Freebie" in hibernation for 27 years - In the process of applying CPR.***

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: boyd ()
Date: June 23, 2022 03:38PM

OK, I replaced the one lifter and put it all back together. I was suprised the lifter cam out as easy as it did.

the old lifter looked brand new (mainly because it was band new.
Also, I remember replacing all the rocker nuts, so that would remove the idea that they could possibly be "backing off". Which is not what was happening.

Adjusted the rockers using a very thin gauge and when it was just tight, I gave it another 1/2 turn (well, almost).

Fired it up and it ran (as I thought it would). Adjusted the lifters one at a time by loosening them up till they clattered, then tightened them up till the clacking stooped. Then I "slowly" gave it 1/2 turn more. They all stopped clattering.

Put the valve cover back on.

Fired it up and let it run for about 10 minutes (just on idle). Shut it off and went inside for an hour. Came back, and fired right up with a short clattering (just a 1 or 2 seconds worth), then it went quiet.I think some of it is because it is not in a car, but hanging right out in the air. Not like the car, so, you hear things you might not in a car.

Well, ,it seems it is OK. And, the old lifter looks fine. Have no idea why it was leaking down. Only wear I could see on it is where the cam pushes it on the end. Not real wear, just a "marking". And only thing I can see odd about that is, it appears the lifter was not "rotating". I assumed the lifters rotate a bit?

Well, well see if the new one last more then 5,000 miles (which is a lot for a buggy! LOL)

Thanks to all your help, I apreciate it.

Boyd



Will see how it does tomorrow. I'm taking it out for a run!

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: June 23, 2022 04:23PM

Open the lifter and see if there is debris, broken parts or abnormal scoring on the plunger and internal wall.

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***'61 Lakewood, a "Freebie" in hibernation for 27 years - In the process of applying CPR.***

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: June 23, 2022 09:30PM

Lifters should rotate a lot.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 135 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 23, 2022 11:02PM

On a lifter that doesnt have a lot of miles on it, but is rotating, you often see a + sign pattern on the face of the lifter, where the pressure is highest its shiny and where the pressure is lowest its a darker metalic color. After more miles the face will either be uniformly shiny or shiny with slight concentric circles indicating that it is spinning. If no spinning, the lifter will have gouges in it, and it happens quick!! Dont ask how I know this.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



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Re: Lifters
Posted by: richard1 ()
Date: June 24, 2022 09:13AM

All lifters will bleed down with the spring pressure against them. Oil that is just sitting will form some varnish over time, but mainly it will decompose. Any moisture, or just the molecules of acid in it can eat away at anything while sitting. I usually see it with excess bearing corrosion in oil analysis, but it could eat most anything.

Also, the oil looses its strength over time. When I got back to my car (in Bolivia) after the lockdowns, it had been about 15-16 months since my oil change and parking it in my carport. As I drove it the first few weeks, I noticed lifter noise on startup, so after a few weeks of this I change the oil again. Only had about 150 miles or so on it. All lifter noises went away.

So my thoughts are: Change the oil, maybe adding a bottle of AutoRx to clean up anything, they adjust the valves. I adjusted mine cold (on the bench) back in 2009, and have not touched them since.

Restoration in Bolivia
Richard's Mini Pickup
Richard's Corvair
Richard's Renault Dauphine

Selection of the Right Motor Oil for the Corvair
Selection of the right transmission oil for the Corvair
How to polish and restore stainless and aluminum trim

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: June 24, 2022 10:03AM

I'm glad it seems to have quieted down. What was the reason you adjusted it running after already setting everything one half turn past zero lash not running? Ken

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: boyd ()
Date: June 24, 2022 10:40AM

Because I have "usually" had very good luck with adjusting them "hot". I have had problems adjusting them cold in the past.
I think that is a matter of personal opinion. some hot, some cold.

I just know it works for me.

I am going to put it all back together today (VALVE COVER), then run it.

I'll take the old lifter apart also and look inside. I'll try to get some photos of it and post them here.

Boyd
Boyd

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: June 24, 2022 08:40PM

I don't know how they can make and sell a hydraulic lifter for the price. They seem magical but I suppose there's not as much to them as it may seem.
I like lifters with a nice crown face like the ones Ken Hand sells. That's more important to me than a deep dimple.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Lifters
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: June 24, 2022 09:07PM

I'm putting together a Below Budget engine that will see minimal use. While the cam actually measured within spec for lift it was too pitted on the nose even for someone (cheap) like myself. The ramps still showed some Parkerizing but the lifters wore sufficient to leave a crossover pattern from the lifter edge wear especially on the wide exhaust lobes.

Regardless I did a Dykem test just to see where a fresh crowned lifter might wear. I was rather surprised that mark was just off center as it needed to be to rotate. How long that would have lasted with the pitted nose was suspect but over the other 85% of the lobe everything looked good. Just goes to show how the important the crown is.

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***'61 Lakewood, a "Freebie" in hibernation for 27 years - In the process of applying CPR.***

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 25, 2022 07:27AM

I had a 65 water pumper Chevy Van that I did an elcheapo rebuild on. The cam looked like that. Little oil reservoirs , it went many many miles and years with no problems had appeared yet when I sold it. Saw it around town for years after that.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Lifters
Posted by: boyd ()
Date: June 25, 2022 11:29AM

OK, this is kind of stupid, but I have to share this. The reason you guy didn't really get the answer is because you didn't have all the information. I wasn't hiding it, I just didn't think of it till now.
I'll keep it as short as possible.

when I built this buggy, I was 15 years old (I'm 69 now). So back in 1968. My Dad was a "Master Mechanic Iron worker" (shop Ironworker), which is not a Car Mechanic. He was a wizard when it came to steel and fabrication. I ended up in the same job many years later. also a master mechanic (which is a designation for a standarn mechanic who can fabricate in 3D for a minimum of 7 years..

We had a 1963 Corvair Monza we removed all the suspension from and discarded the body. We build (in 1967-68)....more then 4 frames for this buggy. Building a frame marrying the body and the suspension was an extreme challenge, hence the 4 frames tossed away.. I remember arguing with him about how I wanted it to "look" after each frame was built and he argued the proper alignments. The suspension geometry on a Corvair is really crazy. It doesn't do what you think it will during fabrication.

On the 5th frame we got it as close as I and my Dad thought it was going to get. Really, looked pretty nice.

Now comes what went wrong....

In order to get all the points of the suspension correct (or very close), we had to pitch the engine up what I now calculate as about 4 degrees up in the rear. Not hardly noticeable.
On your standard Corvairs, the engine is almost flat. Now, one would not think that 4 degrees is very much (2 inches in the length of the engine) and we know Corvairs can go up a hill without any problems (and much more then 4 degrees!).

When checking the oil, the dipstick is roughly in the middle, so it shows pretty close to normal. 1/2 being in the lower range and 1/2 in the upper range. BUT, it leave the rear of the engine (#1 cylinder that I have the problem with) "low" on oil.

Now, I'm not saying this is the problem but, I "overfilled" the engine when I put the oil back in. Not much, just about 1/2 quart.

This may have also solved my problem.

I opened the lifter and it was perfect inside.










Notice on image #3 that the wear is directly in the middle. This stops the lifter from rotation. Now, that is about 6,000 plus miles of wear. Which means I will be about 120 when the engine fails! LOL .... maybe. Factor in that in my Will, I am to be buried in the buggy, ....no problem! LOL

All I can say is, it fires up and clacks for maybe 2 seconds and settles right down. Some of that is because the engine is hanging right out in the open and not covered up like in a Car. You hear everything.



Thank you again for your help....You guys are great!

Boyd



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2022 11:34AM by boyd.

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: June 25, 2022 02:15PM

Well, I hope the oil level is the problem and easily rectified. That said the lifters are fed oil under pressure and the engine tilt shouldn't be a problem because as you noted the car goes up/down hills and doesn't lose oil pressure.

Years ago I did an engine swap. This required indenting the oil pan. Concern I might have leaks I put 3 Qt's in the engine to see if it leaked. Some while later I remember that 'I had put oil in the car' but forgot it was only 3 Qt's.

I could not figure out what the problem was. But the problem was ME! Knowing I had put the oil in the car (yea, right, not all of it) and knowing there weren't any leaks or smoke (and driven few miles) I was baffled as to what was causing the oil pressure to drop off on acceleration. I "just knew" it couldn't be the oil level and never checked the obvious - the dip stick. Finally someone recommended I drain the oil and sure enough..., three quarts came out. I added in 5 fresh quarts and the problem was solved.

In a sense this had a silver lining. The engine while relatively low miles had sat for some time. And in my quest to find my problem I cut open the filter. I noticed a bit of debris that probably dislodged with the little driving I had done. So, the engine got cleaned out and then a fresh oil and filter.

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***'61 Lakewood, a "Freebie" in hibernation for 27 years - In the process of applying CPR.***

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Re: Lifters
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: June 26, 2022 06:29AM

Interesting comment above that pitting is like little oil reservoirs.
One of my former machine shop guys was an old timey race engine builder and thought like that.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Lifters
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: June 27, 2022 10:09AM

The cam just felt too rough over the nose to feel comfortable even though the engine will see minimal use and my goal was to do the engine as economical as possible. A member here thought they had bought a NOS 304 cam (as packaged) and it turned out to be the the 332 80 HP cam with the very low lift .317/348 and something like 165 duration specs. It was offered to me for the price of shipping. Turned out the cam was bent .004 and wouldn't even turn in the case. I then learned that I can whack a cast piece, it didn't break and and I got it to .0005 deflection. Another member donated me a washer and key. For $100 - that being $20 shipping (for the cam), $60 for a new gear (Clark's) and $20 for a set of 16 new in the box Sig Erson SBC lifters seemed very reasonable regardless of my low cost goal.

FWIW, I refurbished a Ford 260 back in my teen years. A friend gave me his old Mustang cam and lifters. Not knowing any better I just randomly selected the used lifters (mine AND his) with the best faces and used them with the used cam. I put 20,000 miles on that motor and never suffered any ill effects. I'm NOT in any way recommending mixing used lifters on used cams but in my case (likely rare) I did not have the excessive wear issues that are often spoken of.

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***'61 Lakewood, a "Freebie" in hibernation for 27 years - In the process of applying CPR.***

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