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Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: June 12, 2022 06:17PM

Over the last year my Heat soak issues have gotten worse.64 Spyder
Symptoms; after driving on a hot day,stop at the grocery store, get back in , starts , hesitates, Farts untill I get fresh fuel to carb then runs fine.
Does not do it with leaded Ethanol free race gas.
So far ive moved the bowel vent outside the air cleaner. Installed a Ted Brown in tank electric pump, moved the return fuel filter right next to the carb to try and circulate fresh cooler fuel, I run the pump for 30 seconds before starting, doesn’t help. Wrapped the Turbo exhaust housing and all rest of the exhaust.
Is this just what 93 ethanol gas has in store for me ?
Thanks for any suggestions

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 12, 2022 07:11PM

Try going richer on the idle mixture screw, and maybe a hair richer elsewhere. Corvair turbo's have a horrible heat soak "reputation" and if you were getting away with it on 93 non ethanol, count yourself lucky! When I first went to EFI and didnt have it dialed in right, the hot soak problem reared its ugly head... really hard to start when hot. Richer low rpm fuel settings was basically the cure. While trying to figure it out, I put a air temperature sensor in the engine compartment next to the air cleaner. In warm weather (75-80 degrees) while driving, there was hardly any measurable difference in air temperature vs ambient air. At least untill I shut it off. HOLY MOLY!!! The temperature gauge pegged at 125-130. It could have easily been hotter than that! It was a struggle to start it like that then... when it did start the O2 sensor would read 16-18:1. This is what you are up against! Tune accordingly!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 12, 2022 07:20PM

I have a fuel pressure regulator with a gauge. When that happens the pressure gauge is reading ZERO. I added an electric pump in series with the mechanical. My electric will only run 3 seconds with the kill relay, so I cycle several times. If I am somewhere that I feel safe leaving the hood up, I do that. Never a problem if I do the hood thing. Try it let me know.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: June 12, 2022 07:57PM

Is there anywhere near you with ethanol free premium? Give that a try, I run it in my tractor and other lawn tools, they all heat soak in hot weather with ethanol gas. Kevin’s right, the turbo engine compartment gets real hot after shutoff, probably the one situation where an electric fan would help????. My turbo currently has ethanol free, but it hasn’t gone farther than around the fire department parking lot, but when I was driving it regularly prior to 2013, I never had a problem with hot soak with ethanol gas. Maybe the Safeguard and crank triggered separate coils helped.

If the leaded race gas eliminates the problem, I think your problem is ethanol.

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: June 13, 2022 04:24AM

I had issues with it until I ditched the stock ignition. Once I put the EDIS 6 on I never had the issue again.

Lee J

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: June 13, 2022 08:16AM

So Lee, let's pretend I don't know what an EDS 6 is...I mean *I* know what it is, so tell me and I will let you know if *you're* right. thumbs up ????

Eric C. Player
Fargo, North Dakota
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and Great Plains Corvair Club.
THEN: 1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow - 1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red - 1966 Monza 110, Purple - 1967 Monza 140, Red - 1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow" - 1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"
---------------------------------------
"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: June 13, 2022 10:53AM

Eric, a quick online search reveals that EDS 6 is an Aircraft Hanger Heater, or a Connective Tissue Disorder, and probably the name/part number of some device used in the movie industry, but. . . . . . .


Lee said EDIS 6, not EDS 6.

EDS-6 is a furd ignition system. winking smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: irfgt ()
Date: June 13, 2022 02:06PM

I doubt if a more powerful spark would help unless there was an issue with the existing system.

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: irfgt ()
Date: June 13, 2022 02:09PM


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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: June 14, 2022 05:03AM

My intuition from a distance might think that heat soak causes evaporation and "boiling over" so to speak so the intake system might be rife with gas.

Interesting that your experience says the opposite and richening up is the cure.

Raw fuel that is not suspended in the fuel/air mixture can be confusing when trying to sort things out. The gas is there but not really burnable.

With hot restarts on the Carter YH I'm used to the choke going closed when it doesn't need to be with the cure being WOT so the choke opens a little so the engine can get some air. This is different since the choke should not be closing at 125 degrees. I'm anxious to listen and learn.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: June 14, 2022 06:00AM

FWIW,I removed the choke from mine 20 years ago, never a problem starting.

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 14, 2022 09:02AM

zarfnober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FWIW,I removed the choke from mine 20 years ago, never a problem starting.


You don't have an address in you sig line, but I bet its nowhere near me.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: June 14, 2022 09:50AM

After the heat soak it fires right up , i assume from the perculated fuel in the intake, then it won’t take gas for 30 seconds or more then slowly clears up as fresh fuel gets in the float bowl . My theory anyway

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: June 14, 2022 11:33AM

Anytime my car sat for any length of time, the gas would evaporate, the fuel pump would refill the bowl, and it would start right up after a couple pumps on the gas.

Yeah JO, no signature line, but I lived in Illinois , 30 miles west of Chicago up until 9 years ago, the car sat since 2013 until last spring, hooked up jumper cables and it started right up, with the gas that was in it when parked. I was a little surprised that the gas smelled normal. Go figure.

Rocco

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: June 14, 2022 05:50PM

Tonight after a drive the heat radiating the the Cooling fan opening was baking the carb. I’m going to fabricate a insulated heat shield to try and divert it away from the carb

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 14, 2022 06:04PM

Try dumping a big glass of ice water on the fuel pump if your running a mechanical.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 14, 2022 08:58PM

irfgt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I doubt if a more powerful spark would help unless there was an issue with the existing system.


Its because its programmable timing, so instead of trying to start the car with 24 degrees initial timing, he can dial in 6-8 degrees for starting, which makes a huge difference in starting, especially during hot soak conditions.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: Mark M ()
Date: June 22, 2022 04:46PM

Hijack: Please school me on the Sunoco race fuels. I put 93 Octane in my Spyder but am sure it has ethanol.

If I want to buy some higher octane fuel what should I buy? Is 100 octane safe for my engine? Will I notice the performance differnce?

Mark M
Project: 64 Spyder Convertible
1st Vair: 65 Corsa 140
St. Louis, MO
Show Me Corvair Club &
CORSA member

"If it's not broken, you're not driving it hard enough"

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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: June 22, 2022 07:58PM

Mark M Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hijack: Please school me on the Sunoco race fuels. I put 93 Octane in my Spyder but am sure it has ethanol.
>
> If I want to buy some higher octane fuel what should I buy? Is 100 octane safe for my engine? Will I notice the performance differnce?

You have to richen the mixture based on how much the ethanol % is, otherwise its a great fuel. On my car, E10 seemed to lean the mixture approximately 10%. It was not a big deal because the carb at that time was a little too rich anyways. You will not normally get more performance from simply putting 100 octane in your engine. It will probably run cooler though. You have to re-tune the engine for the octane, which means a lot stronger timing. Hard to take advantage of the octane by using your stock distributor though. You really want to liven that thing up alot, get rid of the stock timing curve!! The easy way to do that these days is to use a CB performance Black Box. This is a simple, inexpensive way to go to programable ignition timing. Your stock distributor and boost retard "stragies" only redeeming quality is that it will positivly prevent it from blowing the engine up. Everything else about it is wrong. All modern turbo cars, when out of boost, are going to have a timing set-up that is very similar to an NA car... vacuum advance for light loads, rpm advance for acceleration. Into boost timing is gradually pulled as the boost goes up to keep the engine on or close to best power for the current boost level. None of this happens with the stock set-up. Timing stays at a flat 24 degrees until some silly high rpm, and then it advances another 12 degrees to get to 36. Trouble is that 24 degrees is hopelessly retarded during freeway cruising, and this causes the engine to run too hot, and feel like a dog. The NA engine in this same condition is going to be around 40-45 degrees, and is a hell of a lot more lively because of it! when you stomp on it, asking for boost, the boost retard is going to remove 8-10 degrees so now the timing goes down to 16-18 degrees before the late mechanical advance kicks in. When the timing goes down to 16-18 degrees, you are loosing a whole bunch of power, and by the time the mechanical advance kicked in (past 4000 rpm) yes now it starts to take off and accelerate like its should, but you already lost the race! The other thing about that goofy timing set-up is starting can be a LOT harder in warm weather, because its trying to give it 24 degrees at less than 500 rpm. Most NA engines are at 8-12 for starting. Airplanes start the timing at like 2 or 3 degrees, and advance a little more every crank rotation until it starts. The black box overcomes all these deficiencys of the stock set-up, getting you the possibility of a modern turbo timing set-up. It will run a lot cooler and suprise you as to how much better more power and responsivness that has over what you have going right now. And your fuel mileage will be better!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



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Re: Heat Soak issue Turbo
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: June 23, 2022 04:37AM

Thanks for providing the timing curve issue with the stock distributor Kevin, you saved my typing finger.

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