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starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 02, 2022 04:11PM

This would explain the no cranking condition.

Car has sat for a while so was getting it running again, did get it started twice before this happened.

Unfortunately, I can't see the busted off piece thru the starter hole.
I'm going to see if I can get it thru the clutch rod access, but I'm doubtful.

I'm expecting to have to pull the power pack.thumbs down

This nose cone is very new in terms of mileage and I got it from a known and trusted vendor. At the time of install a bolted flywheel and reman pressure plate were also installed, from same vendor.

If it happens again that's a double bummer.

So, ideas on the cause here?
What should I be looking for?

Attachments:
Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 02, 2022 04:28PM


Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 02, 2022 04:35PM

Thanks for the link, but that's a bit of hike for me!

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: June 02, 2022 04:57PM

Normally on Manual transaxles it's loose flywheel rivets.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Dexter ()
Date: June 02, 2022 05:07PM

I agree with Matt. I had a starter nose break a couple times and it was a loose flywheel? I don't think there is any other cause for this other than a loose flywheel

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: June 02, 2022 07:16PM

The OEM Flywheel was assembled with rivets that were installed cold. The bond of a cold pressed rivet is minimal and eventually loosens wears and the flywheel will get out of round enough to stress the starter nose cone. This is a typical break.
I have also seen this happen when one installs a starter from a different standard trans car that had a lose flywheel. So parts history is good to know.
An out of round and lose flywheel may not make the knocking noise at idle, depending on how lose it is.

Corventure Dave

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 02, 2022 07:40PM

63_967_spyder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the link, but that's a bit of hike for me!


Where did it say he won't ship?
Hard to beat FREE. For the cost of shipping.

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 02, 2022 07:52PM

Fellas: Flywheel was replaced with a newly bolted one at same time as starter nose, which was also new (meaning a new casting from one of our known vendors).

That's why I was asking what else I might look for when I go diving in.

(WagonM: good point, I'll ask that guy about shipping)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2022 07:53PM by 63_967_spyder.

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: June 02, 2022 08:32PM

Flywheel out of round or intial timing too far advanced.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
...............110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 02, 2022 08:45PM

Thank you... did not mean to sound chippy in my last post. Just wanted to be clear about flywheel... I do appreciate all the comments.

With timing too far advanced: is the theory that it was just cranking for a long time trying to start and that broke the starter?

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 02, 2022 08:47PM

Both of what Matt said so do it. Tough to do in the car but you could try to get a dial indicator on the ring gear through the starter hole while someone slowly rotates the engine with a wrench.

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 02, 2022 10:13PM

63_967_spyder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
With timing too far advanced: is the theory that it was just cranking for a long time trying to start and that broke the starter?

Not really. With timing at TDC, when the plug fires, the piston has a chance to continue over the top of reverse direction. If ignition timing is too far advanced, the explosion trys to push the engine backwards. Putting more pressure on the starter than the starter nose can handle. You ever here the strain and how slowly a engine cranks when the initial timing is set at about 20° BTDC? That's the starter trying to turn the crank counter clockwise, and the pistons trying to knock it the other direction.

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio 45840

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: June 03, 2022 03:56AM

WOW. I really need to start proof reading for spelling!

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 03, 2022 05:38AM

Any chance you used staring fluid to get it going?

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
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2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
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2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 03, 2022 08:38AM

I really appreciate the comments.
Kick back seems likely to me now. I didn't hear anything really ominous, but I'll provide more details while trying to avoid confirmation bias.

I don't think timing is off much although I did pull the distributor out to circulate oil using an old emptied distributor housing with power drill. I carefully put the distro back in place and had marked the position to do that.

Used brake clean to help starting, no starting fluid. It would run for a bit then die. I'd say two of three times at most. Once some gas was pumped back from the tank, it ran fine of gas.

And then here's what is likely the key: Battery was very low, so ultimately I was jumping it off another car. There could have been some kick backs that I didn't hear or notice.

Once the engine started and idle for a bit I stopped it all and went out to get a new battery at the local napa. I had wanted to get it running to make sure all I really needed was a battery. New battery went in, cranked it and no love...

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: June 03, 2022 09:16AM

We're reaching out there, however...

Another possibility I have seen is a bent ring gear on the pressure plate. If the P-P had been dropped the gear can be flattened a bit at one spot just enough for the starter bendix to possibly ride further into that spot and put stress on the nose cone as things rotate.

One more is an out of center aligned ring gear. This can happen with a poorly aligned "bolt circle" centering job on the flywheel, and also the stamped metal clutch housing being out of spec making the ring gear run out of round.

I've seen this, however it's quite a rare reach to find these.

Corventure Dave

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 03, 2022 09:30AM

thank you for the additional ideas.
The reman PP and bolted flywheel were purchased from a 100% reputable vendor in California (big hint).
While I don't expect them to guarantee perfection, I'd like to believe they'd have checked for damage. As you say, could be something not obvious, I'll concede.

On the other hand, many good starts (albeit several years ago) using this setup.

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: June 03, 2022 09:35AM

Could have been an unseen crack that finally propagated to failure. Look for dar material along break. That will be the old crack line.

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 03, 2022 09:48AM

Yes, good point on crack propagation.

I also suspect (with no further evidence) that these re-pop noses might be weaker than originals (voids porosity, knit lines, etc.).

Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: June 03, 2022 09:56AM

Not the issue here, but a worn ring gear on a torque converter has broken many a nose cone.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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