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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: MtnVairMike ()
Date: June 03, 2022 10:03AM

63_967_spyder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really appreciate the comments.
> Kick back seems likely to me now. I didn't hear anything really ominous, but I'll provide more details while trying to avoid confirmation bias.
>
> I don't think timing is off much although I did pull the distributor out to circulate oil using an old emptied distributor housing with power drill. I carefully put the distro back in place and had marked the position to do that.
>
> Used brake clean to help starting, no starting fluid. It would run for a bit then die. I'd say two of three times at most. Once some gas was pumped back from the tank, it ran fine of gas.
>
> And then here's what is likely the key: Battery was very low, so ultimately I was jumping it off another car. There could have been some kick backs that I didn't hear or notice.
>
> Once the engine started and idle for a bit I stopped it all and went out to get a new battery at the local napa. I had wanted to get it running to make sure all I really needed was a battery. New battery went in, cranked it and no love...


Please be careful with the brake cleaner for starting. That stuff breaks down into some nasty nerve gas type components when combusted or burned. Give it a read on the old interweb and look for the lung damage stories.

[www.thefabricator.com]


Thanks

Mike

1966 Monza Convertible, 140HP-4 speed, Ermine White
1969 Monza Convertible, 110HP-PG, Frost Green

Black Mountain,NC

Others in the menagerie...
72 Corvette Stingray, 58K miles, owned since 87
72 MGB, 112K miles, bought from original owner in 09
78 Chevy pickup, 124K miles, bought new in 78
93 Corvette, LT1/6spd, 210K miles, daily driver since 96
02, Chevy Z71, 4x4, 93K miles, my Dad's truck, inherited 2021

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: June 03, 2022 07:47PM

Quote

Used brake clean to help starting, no starting fluid.

Because you were out of starter fluid? Uncontrolled aerosol flammable substance by any name is just that. Not good for engine.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: June 03, 2022 08:32PM

Ok.
If you got the flywheel and P-Plate from a known Calif Vendor. I'm pretty sure the flywheel and pressure plate are spec'd out fine. winking smiley winking smiley
I would lean, as mentioned here, toward the fractured starter housing as a possibility.

Corventure Dave

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 04, 2022 07:59AM

Mike: Thank you for the link on Brake clean, I didn't know that. Phosgene belongs on Venus, not in my lungs.

Mr DuVal: For some reason I have it in my head that starter fluid is bad. I read/saw/heard that somewhere, perhaps even on this forum, however I cannot cite a reference. What's the consensus? Starter fluid is ok?

Mr. Dave: the starter nose was purchased new from same vendor at same time as PP and flywheel. Are you suggesting the cylindrical starter housing (black in my picture) is cracked?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2022 08:06AM by 63_967_spyder.

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: June 04, 2022 04:31PM

Not much chance that the heavy steel starting housing is distorted or cracked.
Your starter nose cone looks like the typical stress break of a out of round ring gear or flywheel.
Being that everything is new, that likely is not the case.
At this point, I would install another starter and give it a try. Other than that
removing the flywheel and P-Plate and checking ring gear run out is the best thing to check to be sure.
Where are you located? I have the proper tools to check run out's. Ventura Calif.

Corventure Dave

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: June 04, 2022 06:24PM

Dave he can't run the engine. The broken end is inside the bellhsng.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 04, 2022 10:02PM

Dave, I really appreciate your kind offer but I'm in San Jose so that's about a 5 hour drive one way. Too much to ask for a favor.
Although I really could use your EZ lift too!

I have so far not been able to see or feel the large chunk of starter nose still in the bellhousing. I am able to gently rotate the engine using the belt, but no way am I cranking it until all the bits are accounted for.

So, barring a miracle, the engine is coming out...

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: June 04, 2022 10:56PM

Ah yes. Broken nose cone in bell housing! Doe!
Time to split the halves, Clutch housing and diff.

Corventure Dave

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: June 05, 2022 07:08AM

Get a cheap endoscope for your phone, you'll be able to see anything thats in there.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 05, 2022 10:34AM

Dave - now to find someone who will rent or sell me their EZ lift around here

JO - just ordered one. should have gotten one a long time ago.

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: June 05, 2022 06:27PM

I think starter fluid in very small spurts can be used to start a stubborn cold engine. Any spurt longer endangers the rotating mass due to pre-ignition. The smaller the engine, the smaller the spurt. Hence why it should never be used on small single cylinder engines like weed eaters.

Brakeclean is another aerosol flammable solvent, so should also be used in small spurts.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: MtnVairMike ()
Date: June 06, 2022 09:57AM

Just another thought could the PP have been dropped/damaged during shipment that makes it out of round on the ring gear?

1966 Monza Convertible, 140HP-4 speed, Ermine White
1969 Monza Convertible, 110HP-PG, Frost Green

Black Mountain,NC

Others in the menagerie...
72 Corvette Stingray, 58K miles, owned since 87
72 MGB, 112K miles, bought from original owner in 09
78 Chevy pickup, 124K miles, bought new in 78
93 Corvette, LT1/6spd, 210K miles, daily driver since 96
02, Chevy Z71, 4x4, 93K miles, my Dad's truck, inherited 2021

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 06, 2022 10:10AM

The reason I used any kind of starting spray was to reduce the cranking time needed to pump gas up from the tank using the mechanical pump. I figured it's better to have the engine running... I suppose I figured wrong thumbs down

I picked up the PP in-person from vendor so wasn't shipped.
A valid theory though, thank you.

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: June 06, 2022 10:19AM

Loosen lock nut on pump, unscrew fuel pump mounting bolt a ways. Push down on pump (it will spring back up) several times until moving the accelerator linkage produces a squirt in the carburetor. thumbs up

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 06, 2022 12:07PM

yeah, I've done that too in the past. going back to that method, or electric pump.

either way it's better than pulling the engine...

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: 63_967_spyder ()
Date: June 06, 2022 06:05PM

put me down for being a fan of borescopes. next day delivery from the big A and I'm in business.

picture not that great, but I'll get better at it.

at least the broken part is in one piece it would seem

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: June 06, 2022 06:22PM

Great!
Now can you work a bent wire down in there and extract it?
Guess you don't need to, from the sounds of it, you need to pull that engine and check that Flywheel pretty thoroughly. sad smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: ncgriff1 ()
Date: June 08, 2022 10:25PM

I’m a little late to this thread, but if the broken nose cone part is still inside your bellhousing, try this. I speak from experience. I’ve been there, and I got it out. You are going to go fishing.

Go buy a box of Tomcat glue traps. They are the stickiest things on earth. Cut a 1” wide strip off one, peel off the wax paper, bend it into a U-shape, and duct tape it to the end of a 24” long piece of moderately stiff plastic tubing. 3/8” PP worked for me. Fold the strip around the end of the tubing and tape around it. You want the end of the tubing to be sticky, but not the sides. Go around a couple times. You don’t want to lose the glue strip inside the bellhousing too.

You have seen the broken part through the starter hole with your scope, or a dental-type mirror and flashlight. Using a clean piece of tubing, try to knock the part to the very bottom of the bellhousing if it is not there already. If you tap lightly on the bottom of the bellhousing, you should hear it rattle and dance around right above there if you have succeeded at that. You should also be able to feel it sitting there at the bottom by sticking a thin wire through the tiny hole at the bottom of the housing.

Going through the starter hole with the “sticky” hose, head straight down with it and feel/press the glue tip onto the broken piece. Lift slowly to see if it is attached. If so, press down again to attach it really good, then slowly lift it out. It might take a few tries. If the strip gets oily, replace it and try again.

The cone is not magnetic so picking it up with a magnet won’t work. A spring-finger thing did not work for me. A hard wire hook did not work for me. I tried a PP hose taped to a shop vac nozzle, but I could not get enough of a seal to grab it. Duct tape with sticky side out was not sticky enough. The Tomcat glue trap idea got it on the third try.

My nosecone broke because I was an idiot, not because of a bad or loose ring gear. I was due in Charlotte for the Autofair show in two days and the car would not start. No spark. I replaced literally everything ignition related. I had recently rebuilt my carb and turbo by the book. I had no clue what was going on. Just before giving up, I thought to check and see if my knock sensor circuit had come disconnected under the back seat. Eureka! As soon as I plugged it back in, the engine fired, but that was after I had doused the air cleaner with starter fluid 2-3 times. The backfire fractured the nosecone. Sugar. When I removed the starter, I watched the broken piece fall into the bellhousing. I suspected I broke my ring gear too. I used my iPhone to film my ring gear through the starter hole turned manually through several full rotations. Luckily it was perfect. No broken teeth or broken welds and so concentric that it did not shift at all on camera. It was just the gobs of starter fluid I had used in desperation that broke the cone. Lesson learned. I replaced the starter and it’s been fine ever since. I did miss the show though. Sorry again, Ronnie.

Good luck catching that fish if it is not too late!

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fortunate owner (i.e. steward) of Nickshu's restored 1964 Monza Spyder Convertible, my third and final EM.
Greenville, NC

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: ncgriff1 ()
Date: June 09, 2022 10:39AM

Here are a few pictures from that bad day. Ended up OK after all.

BTW, if you do give the glue trap idea a try, buy the ones for insects that fold into a box. Their adhesive is yellow/tan. Not the black ones for mice.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Fortunate owner (i.e. steward) of Nickshu's restored 1964 Monza Spyder Convertible, my third and final EM.
Greenville, NC



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2022 10:44AM by ncgriff1.

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Re: starter nose cone busted
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: June 09, 2022 11:17AM

Does it look like it all new breakage or is some of it darker gray than the rest?

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