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The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: May 13, 2022 02:27PM

Here's a question I've always pondered--what effect, if any, does an engine code have on the value of a Corvair on the open market?

As everyone and their grandmother and maybe their pets know by now, my car has been plagued with engine issues for the last year. These issues are coming to a close, as Countryside Corvair now has all the parts they need to assemble me something out of a Steve McQueen movie. In the end, the only things that will be original to the turbo I started with, are the distributor (purchased in 2018 rebuilt from Corvair Underground, perhaps the last he did, with currently less than 4000 miles on it), the harmonic balancer (purchased directly from a vendor in Vegas in 2019, whose name eludes me for the moment. Now less than 3500 miles into it), the crank (refurbished for this job), and the engine block. Otherwise everything was gathered between July and now, and is new from Clark's or elsewhere.

So, that engine block. My engine was a Frankenstein. A pretty well built Frankenstein (see the Great Fargo Migration), but nonetheless. After this the block will be the only non-turbo thing about the car. I could have found an RL here, no doubt--there's one for sale right here right now--but I like infusing my cars with their own history and memories. Every time I pop the boot and look down at that RX code I will be reminded how far I have come with the car.

So getting back around to the original question of the post, how do those codes affect the worth of the car? I said before I'm not interested in selling mine, but there's so much talk about numbers matching that I think it's worth asking whether it really matters. Trying to find an RL might have delayed the whole project another summer, that would mean I'd have had to wait 2 years to get the car moving again. Is my car, with plus-20 pistons and rebuilt turbo heads and a Nash fan and everything in it's place, really going to be so much less desirable than one that says, "Hi! I'm a turbo!" On the block?

After all, those cars rebuilt with "numbers matching" engine blocks are just as rebuilt as mine. It still isn't the original engine.

I believe "survivor cars" don't count in this scenario. They are more desirable (and rightly so) because nothing has been done to them since they were delivered, except maintenance. But for the rest of us driving around with swapped engines, does it really matter?

Flame on.

Eric C. Player
Fargo, North Dakota
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and Great Plains Corvair Club.
THEN: 1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow - 1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red - 1966 Monza 110, Purple - 1967 Monza 140, Red - 1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow" - 1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW: 1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"
---------------------------------------
"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: pvholgado ()
Date: May 13, 2022 03:18PM

Following this thread as I just finished building and installing a RL block for my 66 Turbo Coupe- the engine that came with the car ran well (I have videos to prove it) and the block number indicated it "could" have been the original block. What I did was take that perfectly good engine of unknow components and replace it with a RL date coded (within 1 week of original block) rebuilt motor assembled with forged pistions, new rods, new fail safe cam, new lifters, pushrods, heads modified and rebuilt with deep seats from Tknobby. I've kept the original (no problem) short block as insurance for 2 reasons- One- in case my first ever rebuild goes South and Second, in case I ever decide to sell my car and the prospective buyer believes the original block/motor might add value to the car.
So lets here from the forum- am I lugging around 300lbs. for nothing??

"A sign of great intelligence is being able to say 'I don't know'"
1966 Corsa Turbo Coupe
Located 25 miles East of Rochester, NY

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 13, 2022 03:28PM

That number matching crap doesnt mean nearly as much as what stuff is actually on it and wether or not its any good. Especially on a non stock turbo engine, like yours. Most American car makers werent so matchy matchy with their numbers and builds as the Barret Jackson types would lead you to believe, and even then, its only helpful on cars that had a small number of examples... say 500 or less.
A good solid built engine and car are usually more valuable than most "so called" numbers matching cars, because most of them arent, especially when the good solid engine and car were done by folks with a good reputation in the Corvair Community and the "so called" number matching car is being sold by someone that doesnt rate.
My opinion only!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car
Test Start#2 [www.youtube.com]



Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: May 13, 2022 03:45PM

The only ones that can be matched to the cars are 68 and later, (maybe 67 also), as they had the VIN stamped in the engine case opposite side to engine code.

The rest of engines are possible match to body, but never guaranteed even if they are within 4 weeks of the body trim date stamp. Those that are real close are basically a bragging right, that the engine date is close to body production time frame. But engine case could be from a different year, since 2 letter codes in the engine ident sequence were not changed for each model year.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: May 13, 2022 03:53PM

If you by happenstance or by wealth have a "matching numbers" car, sure it is a talkable asset. On the other hand, where does it end with "originality?" It will be some crazy thing where some guy has the air in his original spare analyzed to prove that it was from the time era. Always something to "one up" the other guy.

When it is stated that there is 300 pounds of engine being "lugging around" does that mean it is in the frunk, that you move around often or it was just a figure of speech? If it is just sitting in the garage out of the way I'd say hold on to it.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 13, 2022 04:46PM

In the who-ha big money collector world it means everything.

In our little bubble of Corvair Nut world it means very little.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: May 13, 2022 05:00PM

In my experience, it's only a big deal on Corvairs with low production numbers but even that depends on who is buying. Remember the empty RR coded engine case on eBay that went for $1800?

Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
65 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4 w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza Convertible 110/4
66 Monza Convertible 140/4 A/C
65 Monza 4DR 140/PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T/5



Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: PequotMonza64 ()
Date: May 13, 2022 05:34PM

Resale value is always up to the the buyer.

Different buyers value different things.

Someone who wants the freedom to mod a car and make into what he wants may recognize the significance of a true survivor and recognize its historical value, but he's not going to pay for originality.

I just got my first Corvair which seems to be a true 40k survivor with one so-so respray, and I'm already saddled with thinking I should install a dual master cylinder but thinking that makes it less original. So, originality is something of a straightjacket that many people won't want.

I personally place great value on the remarkable originality because that is what I was hoping to find. I think I will install the dual master cylinder since it's, after all, reversible. I'm not planning on trying to improve the car or make it into some sort of concours trailer queen or hesitate to put miles on it.

Most of the collector cars I have had have been relatively inexpensive cars that never sold well in the USA and hence there was no real market value. I'm not sure Corvairs really have a market value because Corvair prices vary all over the place, some being ludicrous.

Maybe true Corvair fanatics can agree on the approximate values of similar cars, but in the end a car is worth what you can sell it for in the time frame you're working with.

Glen in Ohio
1964 Monza Sedan Powerglide 110 hp
Low mileage survivor as delivered
Records back to 1967 in Pequot Lakes, Minnesota
Original dealer may have been in East Liverpool, Ohio
Located in Cleveland, Ohio area





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2022 05:36PM by PequotMonza64.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: 72BBNova ()
Date: May 13, 2022 05:55PM

Phil Dally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the who-ha big money collector world it means everything.
>
> In our little bubble of Corvair Nut world it means very little.


I agree 100%. If your restoring them to make a profit I can see where it would matter and be a big deal. If your restoring one for personal use and enjoyment I don't see where it matters at all. My 64 Spyder coupe has the "original born with" block and transaxle. Would I like the car any less if it didn't have the original block and transaxle nope.

Jeff
1964 Spyder Coupe
1966 Corsa conv. project
1972 Nova 496/6spd
1975 Chevy C20 Camper Special

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: May 13, 2022 06:01PM

Although there are a couple kooks around here who want the exact right thing.

Gem is all correct date coded everything...but I just got it luckily from The Stig.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: May 13, 2022 06:47PM

The "matching numbers" thing has irritated me for a long time. I think it started decades ago with the Corvette restorers and speculators as a way to claim "my 19** Vette is worth more than your 19** Vette".
Plenty of people have been sued for falsifying numbers to increase the value of cars they sold. If you have two identical, correct appearing, and great running cars but claim one is worth thousands more only because it has a trans number you cant see with out great effort, or a different shape of mark stamped on the crankcase, IMO, that's just silly.

Dan Brizendine, Circle City Corvairs
'64 8 door Greenbrier, +.060, stroked 1/4", 186 ci.140 PG. "In beautiful Wanamaker Indiana...with one stop light and 5 pizza shops"

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: May 13, 2022 07:09PM

Nice to know Corvair guys are as down to earth as I thought they were.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: May 13, 2022 07:22PM

Slightly deviating - Over in my Sunbeam Tiger world the cars have either been modified (or neglected) to the extent that a truly original car is few and far between (though they do exist). Modifications are accepted within the community.

What really ruffles their feathers is to take an Alpine, put a Ford V-8 in it and call it a Tiger. To them a Tiger is a specific built FACTORY car. They have no problem if you built a V-8 Alpine and call it such just don't call it a Tiger. They call them Algers and while not literally..., they will equivalently hang a big red "A" around your neck.

So, I'm curious as to how Yenko clones (or other unique Corvair clones) are seen in the Corvair community?

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: May 13, 2022 10:25PM

azdave Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my experience, it's only a big deal on Corvairs with low production numbers but even that depends on who is buying. Remember the empty RR coded engine case on eBay that went for $1800?


Actually Dave, it sold for $2300.oo! eye popping smiley
I remember it well, as it set the benchmark for me to sell mine, right after that. cool smiley
One member here had the effrontery to be offended that I made a profit on a used part. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: gbullman ()
Date: May 14, 2022 05:28AM

I find this whole topic pretty interesting but I don’t totally get it. All cars have consumables like brakes, belts, tires, clutches, hoses that have a finite lifespan. Some even degrade just sitting so low mileage won’t even preserve them.

All cars have other items fail that it is common practice to replace them with new or rebuilt parts (thinking alternators, bearings, seals).

My point being that the definition of a numbers matching, original car has to be somewhat subjective unless the car was not driven or driven very little and is really more of a museum piece. And we all know what happens to cars that aren’t driven much, they need some amount of repair, rebuilding to make them driveable / roadworthy again.

I do like to look at unique, rare, special cars but my real enjoyment of this hobby is driving them. While I appreciate that some folks have and maintain these near perfect examples I could never imagine myself doing that. If anything I’m closer to the opposite, I have just a touch of guilt about how many miles I’m putting on my 66 Corsa but having way too much fun to stop.


Gary
1966 Corsa Convertible
Northern New Jersey


Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: May 14, 2022 06:23AM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Actually Dave, it sold for $2300.oo!

Well I forgot about your sale Mel. I was talking about when I sold my T1027RR engine case.

Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
65 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4 w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza Convertible 110/4
66 Monza Convertible 140/4 A/C
65 Monza 4DR 140/PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T/5



Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: PequotMonza64 ()
Date: May 14, 2022 09:00AM

gbullman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I find this whole topic pretty interesting but I don’t totally get it. All cars have consumables like brakes, belts, tires, clutches, hoses that have a finite lifespan. Some even degrade just sitting so low mileage won’t even preserve them.
>
> All cars have other items fail that it is common practice to replace them with new or rebuilt parts (thinking alternators, bearings, seals).
>

I started out in the early 90s with MGBs. I used to go a bit crazy seeing MGBs (a cheap and unsophisticated British car) "restored" to a state far above what came out of the factory. These and other cars are often said to be "restored" to "original condition" and I see cars all the time that are said to be in original condition that have been restored to concours condition and are now trailer queens.

These cars are not original. A car is only original once.

Consumables like brakes and tires don't count. Even rubber door seals can be replaced, but you can see this is going toward there being degrees of originality. An original car is a bit of an historical artifact from the past. That has its own value, but its not the only value a car can have.

I think "numbers matching" especially on a car that has had a nut and bolt full restoration is primarily a negotiating point for setting a sales price.

Obviously, a real, genuine numbers matching NASCAR Dodge Daytona or Plymouth Superbird will sell for more than a replica. A genuine Superbird with a Hemi from another car? Is that so bad, or is it just a selling point and a bragging point? How many million dollar Corvair sales do we see?

My Corvair is an early model, and the late models seem to be selling for more than early models. My car is a 4-door sedan, and coupes and convertibles seem to command higher prices. Turbos? Yenko? Fitch? Rampsides?

A car is worth what someone is willing to pay to get something they want, whatever that is. I look at my car and love it for what it is, It's not flashy. It's not as it came off the showroom floor in that there is obvious wear. Some prior owner gave it a decent but so-so respray, and from 10 feet away it looks great. If a plain Jane late model in decent shape had presented itself nearby first, I would probably have bought that. I went for this one because it was original, and I didn't think I'd see another one like this in Ohio any time soon in my price range.

Some other time, I'd be doing a restomod, but here I am.

Glen in Ohio
1964 Monza Sedan Powerglide 110 hp
Low mileage survivor as delivered
Records back to 1967 in Pequot Lakes, Minnesota
Original dealer may have been in East Liverpool, Ohio
Located in Cleveland, Ohio area





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2022 09:09AM by PequotMonza64.

Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: gbullman ()
Date: May 14, 2022 04:25PM

Glen,

I had a 79 MGB before I bought this Corvair and that is a classic car world all to its own. A lot of helpful people on MG forums like we have her and a little bit of an underdog mentality which I feel exists in the Corvair community to some degree as well (intending for that to be a complement).

I don’t approach classic cars as an investment but I want to be reasonable as far as investment to potential resale value. Being somewhat under water is paying for the fun you’re having, being way underwater is not some place I want to go.

While I really liked the MGB I already had invested about 4/3 of its realistic value and it would have taken another 2/3 of its value to make it the reliable driver I really wanted, so it has gone to a new home.

I’m pretty confident my Corvair is numbers matching as far as it’s major components. I believe I’m the 4th owner and had a lot of its history provided to me when I purchased it. To me it is a driver and a damn good one at that. I have no plans to sell it for a long time and right now I’m either treading water or perhaps a little under, either way I’m OK with it.


Gary
1966 Corsa Convertible
Northern New Jersey


Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: PequotMonza64 ()
Date: May 15, 2022 05:48AM

gbullman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glen,
>
> I don’t approach classic cars as an investment but I want to be reasonable as far as investment to potential resale value. Being somewhat under water is paying for the fun you’re having, being way underwater is not some place I want to go.
>

I very much agree, Gary.

They always say to buy the best condition car that you can afford. Most of the old cars I have had were cars that needed a lot of work. This is the first time in awhile that the lines of what I had to spend and what was available in good condition managed to intersect. That's the beauty of buying what is generally regarded as an unappreciated classic. I've known about Corvairs since they were new, but I never appreciated what a clever bit of engineering they were both in terms of how they work and how they were designed to be put together on the assembly line. I'm really looking forward to getting this one properly adjusted. As an MGB guy, you probably know what it's like to try adjusting a dual SU setup with leaky throttle shaft, which was what MG guys on a budget have to deal with. I'm hoping that these carbs will be pretty good being low mileage after I rebuild them.

Cheers

Glen in Ohio
1964 Monza Sedan Powerglide 110 hp
Low mileage survivor as delivered
Records back to 1967 in Pequot Lakes, Minnesota
Original dealer may have been in East Liverpool, Ohio
Located in Cleveland, Ohio area


Re: The Effect of Matching Engine Codes on Corvair Resale Value
Posted by: Lane66m ()
Date: May 15, 2022 07:04AM

PequotMonza64 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
. I'm hoping that these carbs will be pretty good being low mileage after I rebuild them.
>

Get Bob Helt's book in rebuilding the Corvair Rochester carbs. It will get you lots of insight to identify and rebuild your carburetors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 09:20AM by 1966-Corsa-GT-180.

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