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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: January 28, 2022 09:12PM

The 61-63 FC and turbo build engines have the GM 500 bearings with the copper wash on the edges. These are part numbers 3788180, 3786725, and 3786741 and are getting hard to find. I used a set in an engine that I rebuilt for one of my 1962 Spyders. There were different part numbers 3834860. 3834870, and 3834880 for the Moraine bearings introduced in 1963 - the aluminum bearings for the 1964 model year 164 cid engines. According to Bob Helt, the M400 "premium aluminum bearing" is better than the M500 bearing but maybe they were just less expensive for GM. The rear bearing number 3834880 was superseded to 3867770 when full flanged rear became standard again.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 29, 2022 05:31AM

Thanks for all the part numbers, I'll print it off for my Info.
It's really interesting all the things they tried with Early engines.

I mentioned I was going to take apart a 84 HP engine for the heads. Sort of the long way around the block for me to learn that 84 HP is 80 HP lower with 102 heads, I got out the Bob Helt book after the heads were off.

I have a clean 61 80 HP crankcase that may get a new lease on life with 62 heads. Better valve springs and automatic chokes are good things. PCV too.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: January 29, 2022 05:28PM

I think that the way to think of the 84 hp Monza automatic engine is to think of a 80 hp engine with 9 to 1 compression, while the 102 engine has the 332 cam in addition to the 9 to 1 compression heads.

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 31, 2022 05:40AM

I'm mixing and matching parts to get some viable engines.

The first is because I got a good deal on a .020/.020 crankshaft with bearings that had been abandoned at Crankshaft Supply. I'm having some full fin cylinder bored for .060 Egge pistons and will probably use a turbo cam and 102 heads. I need to figure out what 2-barrel carburetor will fit on a 2-legged center mount manifold I've got.

The second is a VD 102 FC that was in my Van. A valve seat took out 3 pistons on one side and the head was off the other side for 20 years. I took low mileage cylinder/piston/ rod assemblies from a 61 and 102 heads from the shelf. Small rods. I wasn't sure I could transfer the exhaust valve rotators since they were on single groove valves and the substitute valves had multiple groove keepers.

I should do something with the low mileage 61 80 HP crankcase. I'm thinking 102 heads to make a 84. I can get better valve springs and automatic chokes.

I've got another set of full fin cylinders but they're 3 7/16 61 size. I might make another oversize engine like the first one. I've got 2 turbo cams with no part numbers. Measuring lifts seems to make them 63s but I should check the durations. I'm making one engine because of a crankshaft, can I make another because of some cylinders? Maybe if I can get a deal on some Early oversize pistons.

January seems to be my month for messing with useless engines. I think I'll take apart a stuck 140 and a stuck 64 110 today before the month runs out. They're no good the way they are.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: January 31, 2022 05:49AM

I need edit that last one, too, Jim. The 95hp, 98hp and 102hp have the 3777255 high performance cam. 1960 80hp is 6255609 cam and 1961-63 80hp use the 3779332 cam.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 19, 2022 02:08PM

I've got something I've never seen before on a '60 Manual engine TO5I9Y. It's an oil slinger held with a snap ring between the gear and seal surface.
I'm changing from a Manual to PG bell housing. The seal in the bell housing looks the same except it's not "complex" in the metal part on the outer perimeter. Am I going to have problems?

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2022 02:10PM by JimBrandberg.

Attachments:
Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: September 19, 2022 10:28PM

Yes, have to use simple style with 60 crankshaft. Or change the crank gear.

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 20, 2022 04:51AM

Oh, oh, my associated already put the bellhousing and flex plate on with a complex seal. Better to know now than later. Will it be easy enough to tell if it's making contact when turning the engine with a wrench?
I've never really understood what the complex seal sections actually do. I usually rap a little extra on them with a hammer and broad punch.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 20, 2022 05:32AM

I turned the engine with a wrench and it's hard to tell if there's contact with the complex seal. Will there for sure be interference unless I use a simple seal? If so I wonder where I can get one? I had one but must have used it in something thinking it was just a cheaper version of the same thing.
I suppose I can remove the bell housing and look for shiny spots where the oil deflector or snap ring are making contact with the complex seal? It might be applying thrust to the crankshaft?

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: September 20, 2022 07:40AM

What is a "simple" seal and what is a "complex" seal? I have never seen that large snap ring or large oil slinger before but I have never owned a 60 engine or car.
Also, did 60 use the lower cylinder deflectors? Your picture does not show them.

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: September 20, 2022 11:21AM

Seal 6256603 is for 1960 engines, 3851853 is for 1961 -1969 engines which part number superseded 6257834.

I imagine that there is a reason for a different part number. It is a nicer looking seal without all that folding metal. Probably not as good at retaining the spring on installation.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 20, 2022 11:27AM

The "complex" seal has the little raised "tabs" in the metal on the outer circumference. I'm asked on here before what they're supposed to do but have never gotten a good answer.
The "simple" seal has the metal just smooth all around like most things you see.

Good catch on the cylinder baffles, I hadn't even noticed.
Another thing I noticed this morning is 5 full fin cylinders and one '61 and up.
This engine was in a trike and the guy removed it in favor of a 180 turbo.
I thought maybe it was going to be easy.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 21, 2022 05:50AM

I'm going to run the engine with the complex seal since it's already in there. Just a test run on the cart to see if the engine is any good. If that goes well I have to remove the oil pan to fix a broken bolt so it won't be much more work to remove the bell housing and see if the oil slinger has made contact with the seal. I have a simple seal coming.

I got out a hammer and punch to drive the simple seal out of the old Manual bell housing for comparison. With complex seals I'm used to them putting up a pretty good struggle but with the simple seal one not very hard tap and it just fell out. I'm not sure how the little tabs work on the complex seal but they sure seem to do something.

If the engine seems okay I guess I'm doing pushrod tubes in order to get the cylinder baffles in there. I'm not much for patching something in there. I'll have to untorque the whole head.
It's interesting that the original type thick washer and nut are so far out on the studs. Hmm, the other side isn't so far out...
It's also interesting that a '60 has 5/8 vacuum balance tube and subsequent years are considerably smaller.

I'm way past just slapping in another engine that was laying around. I had another '60 Manual to choose from, I wonder if that would have been any easier. Life's not easy when you're fat and greasy...

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Attachments:
Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: September 21, 2022 05:58AM

I guess the worst thing that can happen is that the seal tabs will scrape the oil slinger until the metal wears away. Conceivably the spring could pop out when that happens.

Maybe get a large snap ring pliers like used with a turbo and remove the circlip and the slinger until you have a simple seal. Of course, if you do all that, maybe you don’t need the simple seal.

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: September 21, 2022 10:09AM

You can install the baffle by doing one pair of tubes at a time. I did that recently and it went quite well, just a little bending and then straightening.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 22, 2022 05:12AM

Apparently the "complex" seal means that the oil slinger is built into the seal. If you compare them the metal on the "complex" seal comes closer to the crankshaft. The metal tabs might be how the pieces are connected rather than how the seal is retained in the bell housing.

The engine did not seem okay when running. Lots of smoke out of #3 exhaust and on the spark plug even though it shows 125#s with a Compression Test. Running it with no exhaust manifolds made it easy to see where the smoke was coming from.
I've decided the "easy" solution is to use the bottom end of this one with the top end of the other one. The other one had low oil pressure and a thump you could feel in the seat of your pants. I've read about the earliest thumpers before they changed the bearing on the flywheel end but I don't know if I've experienced one.

Some folks might think I'm a little crazy to put much effort into a '60 80 HP but I'm bound and determined to have one of the originals going. I'll be needing the choke working soon, a little chilly out this morning.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 22, 2022 07:04AM

Since my intent with this thread originally was just to point out different things on the Earliest engines I'll just say a few more things without expounding further on my personal adventures.

The '60 crankcase has little bosses cast into it to hold the cooling air thermostat. There's the boss into the lifter gallery for oil pressure sender that carried into '61. There's also a boss to dip down into the sump to monitor oil temperature rather than cylinder head temperature.

The right side head has a vertical hole through it for a heat riser tube to the choke. It must be the same path they used for the automatic choke rod in '62. This tube is metal all the way up.
There's another heat riser tube in the rear right going to the air cleaner but that is only dependent on the different exhaust manifold. This tube turns to a rubber hose after just a few inches. I can't imagine it carries enough heat up to the vastness of the air cleaner housing to do much but perhaps I'm missing something. Maybe it helps draw air for the choke tube...?

The air intake before the choke can take warm air from below the fan shroud next to #4 and #6 cylinders. There's a damper you have to turn in the Spring to shut it off.
I love the picture of a group of engineers in 1959 standing around the open hood of a Holden bodied Corvair on a 20 below northern Minnesota day whilst engaged in cold weather testing.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: September 22, 2022 10:21AM

The rubber hose going to the air cleaner is to provide clean air the the choke. There is vacuum applied to the tube attached at the choke and it sucks clean air out of the air cleaner thru the exhaust manifold to warm the choke. I see quite a few '60s missing the rubber hose going to the air cleaner probably because the tube in the exhaust is all rotted off. The small tube on the air cleaner is on the clean side of the filter so if it is left open you are getting dirt into the engine. If anyone needs one of those special '60 exhaust manifolds I have one.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2022 08:44PM by 1966-Corsa-GT-180.

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 22, 2022 10:09PM

I just did the lower cylinder baffles on my Rampside. You do not have to retorque the whole head. Take 2 pushrod tubes out and put the guide plate and rocker studs back on and torque them. Then do the next 2 and then the last 2. Now the head still torqued down and no pushrod tubes. Reverse the procedure after installing the cylinder baffles. I did it this way so I didn't disturb the head gaskets any more than a normal o-ring job does.

The complex seal does not have a build in slinger. It doesn't move so it can't sling.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 138 Corvairs and counting...

Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 23, 2022 04:57AM

On this thread from 12 years ago they call it a flinger when it's on the crankshaft and a cover when it's on the seal.
I'm still unclear on exactly why the seals are called simple and complex but that won't stop me from throwing the lingo around in small groups.

[corvaircenter.com]

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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